Chaco
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Fetch the Pie has been updated!

The difficulty has been ratcheted up in levels three and four. Level 4, in my opinion, was designed fairly well in terms of layout and monsters used, so I adjusted its difficulty mostly so that there were fewer trivial choices and more things hurt you. Level 3 is now much more sparing in terms of power gems given out and some tougher monsters are guarding important items.

The infamous level 2 boss fight counter is fixed, and it's possible to get underneath the benchmark HP count now.

There are two new rooms in Level 3 and Level 4 which rather clearly serve the purpose of exchanging health or greckles for keys if you run out of the latter.

The Second Interlude replenishes your health from fighting monsters so that it's more profitable. However, this occurs *after* the monsters are fought, so you have two options: bringing in enough health to do all of this in the first place, or spending a green key to get at a health potion early.

Autosave checkpoints similar to the ones featured in Tendry's Tale have been added to all levels.

Hopefully the difficulty gradient and player statistic progression should now be smoother; so give this new update a try and tell me what you think.

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Blondbeard
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There are keys alright. I had 11 yellow keys, and 3 green ones when I ended completed the hold, and I didn't bother to collect them all.

Also: As far as I can see you have messed up at two places. When I check around in the editor it seems pretty clear that you can't beat the second boss loosing less then 225 HP. There's no way you can get 68 ATK that early in the game. And the multiplyer of level 4 is the same as the multiplyer of level 3 (*3. This makes some sections of the level very much not worth it. For example a secret, where you have to spend more than 1000 lives in order to get 600 lives and a yellow key.)

Chaco
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Blondbeard wrote:
Also: As far as I can see you have messed up at two places. When I check around in the editor it seems pretty clear that you can't beat the second boss loosing less then 225 HP. There's no way you can get 68 ATK that early in the game.

You don't need 68 ATK to accomplish that.

And the multiplyer of level 4 is the same as the multiplyer of level 3 (*3. This makes some sections of the level very much not worth it. For example a secret, where you have to spend more than 1000 lives in order to get 600 lives and a yellow key.)

Intentional so as not to make the Power Gems so powerful. But you're right in that I should probably remove some yellow keys and make others a bit harder to get at. That or require more yellow keys in the future, so as to force some to be retrieved.

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Blondbeard
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Chaco wrote:

Blondbeard wrote:
Also: As far as I can see you have messed up at two places. When I check around in the editor it seems pretty clear that you can't beat the second boss loosing less then 225 HP. There's no way you can get 68 ATK that early in the game.

You don't need 68 ATK to accomplish that.

Right you are! I should learn to play the game before I open my mouth The hold, as it is now, is quite easy (I think), but it's a bit unbalanced. I bet that is since it's not compleated yet. Also: It is a bit odd with a voice telling me I could have saved lives when I intentionally wasted those lives in order to save a key. If you want me to save lives you'd better make it the optimum thing to do (400 lives saved equals a yellow key).

Chaco
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Hey, everyone!

I know you guys might be getting tired of testing the Third Level over and over and over again. This time I think I've gotten it right.

I've uploaded a new version of Fetch the Pie, with a new third level. A new fourth level is not included, so the hold ends at the end of this new third level. I've also made small changes to various parts of the hold, including adding a new room to the first level that should be backtracked to, and making the choice in Second Level: Quarce North Twice West less imbalanced by making the other option more attractive.

The third level itself has been completely redesigned - it keeps a lot of the same visual motifs, and many familiar features such as the water-draining puzzle lock survive intact. Overall, I think the power progression, the aesthetic design, and the overall quality of the hold has now been greatly improved, so I'd like people to run through the hold again and tell me how well the third level works. If it works well, then I can redesign the fourth level, and then finally advance the story beyond what I've shown everyone already. It's going to be a good tale.

So, check this out. Hopefully I've done a good job, so give me some feedback as to the job I've done.

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Chaco
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Erm, if you're talking about the stairs in Level 3 Once North, then that's intentional. I haven't remade level 4 and I've set those stairs to end the hold.

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Chaco
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I looked at the staircase and apparently something odd happened: the left column was set to end the hold, and the other two spaces were set to go back to level 2. I'll go upload a new version where I delete and replace the staircase, but in the meantime try using the eastern side of the staircase and see if that works.

EDIT:

Okay, I've uploaded a new version. Hopefully the Level 3 Entrance staircase should now be fixed and should work normally.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 12-25-2008 07:16 PM]

Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
2S1E is plain silly. If you can't one-shot queens on oremites, the room is unsurvivable unless you use a key, but then all you get back is a key and less health than you use, so there's no choice at all. If the reward were better, the player might have to choose whether to do the room now or come back when they can one-shot the queens.

I'll revise the room to be less silly.

In 2E it's impossible to reach the medium potion and key, as you can't cut mud without a sword.

Yeah, so? Use a sword then.

Thanks for the commentary. Your end-game stats are about what I'd expect, given what's in this level.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 12-26-2008 08:56 PM]

Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:

Chaco wrote:
Yeah, so? Use a sword then.

How? There are oremites, and you start this hold with a short sword, so you can't go back and retrieve a wooden one.

There's a wooden sword in the First Interlude that you can take out of the level.

(You'll find it's quite handy to have around at some points in the Third Level also.)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 12-26-2008 09:29 PM]

Blondbeard
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Nice effort!

I think the hold feels overall more balanced, and that the choises feels a bit more interesting in the new version. There's also more you can "do right". On the other hand there's still lots and lots of health lying around. It doesn't really bother me, but as usual I would apreciate an epic boss battle in the end where the optimizer could use his/her surplus.

Chaco
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Fetch the Pie has once more been updated! In the new update, there is the following:

*The Fourth Level has been added. Those of you who played the old Fourth Level might recognize a few rooms, but it's mostly all new stuff. This level is quite challenging, and trust me when I say that you'll need the health and the gems I've been leaving around. I'd like some commentary on how difficult this level is, both when all statistics are gathered and when some things have been left behind.

*The return of the Serpentskin Shield! The shield now grants +20 to DEF when worn (compare to the +10 of a wooden shield and the +30 of a bronze shield). It requires 2,000 greckles to purchase, which is an amount that is difficult but not painful to get, and is going to be very helpful. You'll want to obtain it as soon as possible.

*More content has been added to the Third Level - a couple of rooms with monsters guarding keys, and particularly one room with some exposition that'll be quite juicy.

*Unfortunately, Second Interlude is not yet possible to get to in-game. It won't be until I get around to making a particular part of Level 5 that probably won't be for another update or two.

There's plenty of story and plenty of fighting, and I believe the hold is now the better for it. Have fun, and give me some feedback on what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong.

Also, feel free to ask me any questions, particularly on the possibility or impossibility of accomplishing anything in here.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-30-2009 12:16 AM]

Fang
Level: Master Delver

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I'm playing the new version and yikes, the level 4 is much harder than before indeed. What's sure is you can't finish it by messing around for the first time, you gotta explore and plan for later in the level. As a sidenote, I've tried without getting any secret room, and it's very, very hard. Maybe it's just my skills that need a bit polishing, but figured I'd point it out, in case. It looks awesome so far.

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Chaco
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Glad to see you're having fun. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Stage 4 ends up being a stage many people have to restart, and I don't have a problem with that. Hopefully nobody else does either.

Given that many of this hold's secret rooms here have either power gems, health or a shield(!), and that basically the strategy of this hold is "get all the power gems you can at the best price you can" seeing as I'm only giving out power gems and not DEF gems, I'd highly recommend visiting secret rooms and not eschewing them.

I'd particularly recommend getting all the power gems due to the fact that the boss of Level 4 (rather than the Scout midboss who is fought pretty soon after the beginning) is essentially as tough as a Goblin King, and as such needs plenty of power to be fought with any reasonable amount of HP loss.

Anyhow, I can give out tips of how I did a reasonable run of Level 4 if anyone asks for them - there's definitely a good strategy and I think on subsequent runs the level gets a good deal easier once the player knows where everything is and what constitutes acceptable HP loss (and what does not).

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-31-2009 03:55 AM]

Jeff_Ray...
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I am up to the Level 3 boss...



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Chaco
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It's meant to be somewhat obvious you're supposed to kill the brain in that room, but I can remove two of the eyes in the next version and bring the number down to 7 from the previous number of 9.

(However, the way the room is set up, saving one green key and one yellow key at the cost of a bunch more HP lost isn't a good enough incentive to keep the idea of tanking through the eyes with the brain alive open. Not sure yet if I want to keep this option open yet or not, but I'm leaning in the direction of "this is something the player should realise".)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-01-2009 12:43 AM]

Njaa
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File: Goblin Commander.JPG (22.5 KB)
Downloaded 542 times.
License: Public Domain

A bit weird that you can stop the Scout that tries to run away in level 4, but it doesn't trigger an event. You either have to let him go, or kill him. Are there more than two ways of beating him?

I don't think you need to nerf the brained-9-eyes-boss. I think I optimized decently, but level 4 was still hard. Which is awesome. ^^

Edit: I didn't kill the brain at the eyes, and I collected everything except a medium potion that costs 40 HP more than it gives. This left me with 368 HP. I don't think I reduced the HP-loss from the last boss with the last few gems, but they did bump down the tar babies a notch, so I don't think I could have saved much hp by not getting them.

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[Last edited by Njaa at 02-02-2009 05:13 AM]

Chaco
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Njaa wrote:
A bit weird that you can stop the Scout that tries to run away in level 4, but it doesn't trigger an event. You either have to let him go, or kill him. Are there more than two ways of beating him?

You sure? There's only one specific room where you're "meant" to be able to stop him:



and if you do, then you trigger a cutscene after a move or two that features some proper reactions, and changes a few appropriate details in the rest of the level.

However, I suppose if you managed to kill him in any other room then none of this would happen and the Scout would re-appear in the previous room if the player hadn't gotten there yet. What happened?

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Njaa
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It was in that room, yes. I stood on the rightmost of the green door with my sword facing northeast. This traps the Scout, but nothing else happens. Killing him does trigger the "Early" event two turns later, but there seems to be a missing non-lethal event.

Chaco wrote
and changes a few appropriate details in the rest of the level

My optimizing-sense is tingeling. Other changes than the obvious?

Chaco
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Njaa wrote:
It was in that room, yes. I stood on the rightmost of the green door with my sword facing northeast. This traps the Scout, but nothing else happens. Killing him does trigger the "Early" event two turns later, but there seems to be a missing non-lethal event.

Oh, hey. I didn't realize you could get there a turn faster than I planned - I figured the fastest you could possibly do was stab the scout just as he unlocked the door, or else he'd run down the passageway and get ahead of you.

My optimizing-sense is tingling. Other changes than the obvious?

Nah, that would be a bit mean. Aside from getting to lose less health to the Scout (and therefore picking up less health as a result of the single health potion remaining in the boss room but the three health potions getting locked off), there aren't any changes to the Goblin section (or later sections) based upon what happens with the Scout here. (You'll notice the second scout runs off in a different direction, though.)

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Jeff_Ray...
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Looking in the editor, I found...



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Fang
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Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Looking in the editor, I found...

Click here to view the secret text

×The Prison Cell. What does it do? And where is it used?

I remember logging onto CaravelNet one day and Chaco was speaking about scripting...

I've replayed it and I got it done, but I didn't get the shield. Maybe next time.

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Chaco
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Fang is correct. As you can tell if you drop the player into there, the level isn't finished yet. I elected to work on Level 4 first. Suffice to say you needn't worry about that until I finish it and connect it to the actual hold.

Glad to see everyone's having fun with Level 4.

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Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
Okay, I'm stuck. My ATK is 120, one +3 gem short of the threshold needed to beat the six goblins without ruinous HP loss. I have not worked out how to enter Third Level: 1N2W, 3W or 2S3W, so perhaps the answer is in one of those rooms. But I have no idea where to look for how to reach those rooms, since the rooms that border them don't seem to offer any clue.

All three of those rooms (and the passages leading to them in the rooms bordering them) only exist in the newest version. If you continued from an old version you'll need to start again so those passages will exist when the rooms are loaded anew.

Also note that I added a +3 power gem to Third Level Once South Quarce East, which is behind some twice-brained mud mothers, so if you can take only a bit of damage from them you should be set.

How much damage do goblins do to you at this point? I can complete the level either taking 270 or 180 damage from each of the six goblins (when I get the Serpentskin Shield).

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Someone Else
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I agree. The "Defeated Scout Normally" scorepoint should just read "Defeated Scout". And Nuntar, for the cost of some health, a yellow key and a green key, you can kill the scout early. (So he's weaker when you attack him)

Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
Is it intentional that in Third Level: 1E

Click here to view the secret text

×the simplest way to open the black gate is to put away your sword?

That's completely intentional. So is the ability of the player to kill the brain in 1N1W if they're swordless. (This is why there are two sword slots in The Entrance.)

The signpost in Fourth Level: Entrance doesn't do anything.

It doesn't do anything yet because the Fourth Level will have more than one exit. (That exit won't be in the next update, but I'll fix the signpost so it at least points out the existing exit.)

Why is the score checkpoint called "Defeated Scout Normally"? What other way is there?

As Someone Else pointed out, it's possible to defeat the Scout in another manner. The title of the score checkpoint "Defeated Scout Normally" gives the player a hint that there's more than one way to defeat the Scout, as opposed to the previous three bosses ("Defeated Spider"). Also, this way there are highscores for both methods, as opposed to one high score shared between both methods.

I think one problem with this hold -- compared to others I've played -- is that there's no reward for amassing keys. If I'd known that, I'd have used keys to lose fewer HP on the mad eyes boss. I don't know, I'm just used to it being optimal to keep keys where you can, so it's hard to adjust to a different style of playing.

I've put rewards, such as power gems or large health potions behind doors before, and the first two levels actually block off the bosses with yellow doors. I'll take this into consideration when I design the next update, particularly taking into consideration the idea of someone like you having a bunch of keys left over.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-04-2009 10:53 PM]

Blondbeard
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Seems to me that you will gain more than you loose by taking the ATK in level 2. You will save so much lives later on. Especially when fighting golems and goblins and the brained tar baby at the forth level (you can reach ATK 127 before fighting it, if you take the level 2 bonus). The hold feels challanging as it is now, but I doubt if it's worth it to get the Serpentskin Shield as soon as you can. Basically it's very expensive to get it when it comes to health you have to spend, and you need your health for that Goblin Comander.

Edit: And please, please add an invetory! It's not fun to constantly rush between two swords!

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 02-20-2009 03:19 PM]

Chaco
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Blondbeard wrote:
Edit: And please, please add an invetory! It's not fun to constantly rush between two swords!

I'll be perfectly honest; the reason I haven't added an inventory is because it would be possible for the player to really mess up the mechanisms in place in First Interlude: Twice South Twice East and Third Level: Once South, Thrice East wherein the player needs to stay disarmed until he steps on a rearming token.

However, I agree that it isn't much fun to swap swords around, so I'll be working on de-emphasizing oremites. In addition, I have a surprise planned in the NEXT alpha version, wherein essentially you have to do the entire next area all at once, and you won't be able to run back and get the wooden sword anyhow.

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Chaco
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A new version of Fetch the Pie is released!

Included is a large section of campaign wherein Vincent Trisman enters a cave, kills a lot of goblins, and then gets a reminder that the hold has a plot. Parts of both Level 4 have been revised, so it might be a good plan to restore back to the beginning of level 4 and play again.

Notable changes include:

-A revision of the Scout encounter, wherein it becomes more robust and obvious when the two times you can fight him are

-Making the Serpentskin Shield more expensive (it's now 2,100 greckles)

-Some landscaping and other gameplay balance

So, give this new version a playthrough, and let me know what you think of the difficulty and the level design. Score checkpoint statistics for fighting this boss (as well as what strategy you used) would also be appreciated.

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Someone Else
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It wouldn't be too hard to write a script to deactivate the inventory script during the interlude, and reactivate it once it's finished. I could do that for you, if you want.

Chaco
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Someone Else wrote:
It wouldn't be too hard to write a script to deactivate the inventory script during the interlude, and reactivate it once it's finished. I could do that for you, if you want.

Hmm. I hadn't considered that idea.

Yeah, if you could do that, that would be really good. Then I could look at the code and adapt it to be used in Level 3 1S3E too, or anywhere else wherein the inventory needs to be disabled.

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