Banjooie
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Well, we're almost done, then. Good, because this argument is starting to grate on just about everybody right now, I think. Let's finish off some details, shall we, mrimer?

Banjooie, I've taken the time to explain this to you here because you said making a public stink is necessary and it seems you demand public validation and a public answer.

Well, the result seems to be that we've all learned things about the Caravel support process that a great deal of the forum didn't know, despite the fact you seem to think it is staggeringly obvious, so I'd be awfully surprised to see you disagree that this public release of information has somehow been useful, unless you're personally against the idea of the forum knowing how to receive support for your games. I'm very clearly not the only one confused on the issue.

But, honestly, when DROD RPG was released, you were complaining publicly that Caravel was choosing to expend its limited resources on something that you might not like instead of giving you more of the game that you already like. Considering you said this, I really don't understand why you would now be lobbying for Caravel to work on improving the patcher so you don't have to send me an e-mail instead of supporting us in getting the next classic DROD game done.

Alright. Back then, I was stupid because I was expecting you to do Classic DROD which was apparently 'patently impossible you fool for reasons we won't release but are clearly related to our contract with GarageGames and the whole Frogs and Mice debacle.'

Now I'm stupid because I'm expecting you to do something that isn't Classic DROD because 'remember that time we made fun of you for demanding DROD? Why aren't you demanding DROD this time I don't understand.'

You have made your point, but it appears you haven't thought this part through.

Well, so far as I can tell, this part is, 'Banj, because you're not thinking of what I /expect/ you to be thinking of RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT, you are a dumbkoff, and furthermore should stand on the point, not near it.' Except I don't think you're playing TF2 in the other window, so maybe I'm completely wrong there.

You get upset when I ask for Classic DROD.

You get upset when I say, 'Okay, how about something you haven't said is outright impossible to work on?'

I'm a little mystified, mrimer.

NiroZ
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What exactly are you trying to get out of this, banjooie?

Lamkin
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I've pasted this text directly from my Downloads section:
The full version of "DROD RPG: Tendry's Tale" for Mac--available only to registered DROD RPG users with CaravelNet.

I actually agree 100% with Banjooie. An e-mail should never* be necessary to obtain any upgrades to any registered Caravel game, regardless of whether or not you've purchased CaravelNet.
I sincerely believe this should be fixed as soon as possible... I'd say to fix it so that a patch always contains everything you need to have the very latest version of the game.



*Okay, so I've only had to e-mail a given company if I've lost a registration code and needed to reinstall a game.

PS Yes, I realize that nobody else on the forums will see the exact same page I linked to, but I got, um, anal-retentive about matching the color exactly.
PPS To be fair, Mike has always responded rapidly whenever I've contacted him, so if it's inconvenient for Caravel to change the way downloads are currently handled, I will kindly extend a limitless patience to him and his software company.

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[Last edited by Lamkin at 11-12-2008 01:55 PM]

Banjooie
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NiroZ wrote:
What exactly are you trying to get out of this, banjooie?

I got my 'hey, you're right, this is kinda messed up'. I am currently dealing with the 'you're an idiot for suggesting this' part, and I believe we will be overwith shortly.

At which point I firmly expect everyone to start gushing over the upgraded graphics because /oh my god/ you have done an excellent job.

techant
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mrimer, you should know that I have the greatest respect for you. You always work hard to answer issues and help us out. And I think that Banjooie, while sometimes argumentative does have many good points. You both make the game forum and the game itself better because of your inputs, different that they are from each other in style. Thank you mrimer for your continued patience with all our complaints after you have obviously tried very hard to make this all go smoother than it has.

I own my own businesses (fyi: bookkeeping and website design) and am very aware that customers do not always see things the way I think they do. While it is hard to hear these complaints especially when packaged in an combative way, it is still good information.

I realized now that I was not the only one who was confused about patches. I had started reading "today's active posts" just so I wouldn't miss a new patch announcement because I really didn't know where else to look. Now that you point out where you have it, it makes more sense but it was not where I thought to look. I would stare at the home page and think, "Where would they put patch information? Hum, lets see, here NO here No etc. I gave up looking and resorted to search which got me here, to this thread.

As to the download link at the top of the page. I have clicked it in the past and at a glance it looked like a more direct path to the download page at the website, which it is. I have used that link to get new holds and demos but had not seen it as a place to find the latest patch. I am telling you this so you can have another perspective, not to complain.

What I was suggesting is that some folks come looking for help on a room or hold and that is easy to locate right from the main forum home page, but those that come just looking to see if there is a patch, because patches happen, do not have an easy time verifying if one exists or not. That was why I suggested moving it to the home page as its own thread.

"Patches and/or Upgrades" could be the title and it could have each game splinter off of that. As a website designer I have to constantly think what are people who come to this site looking for and can they find it fast and easy. That is all I am suggesting here. I am glad what has been done already has been done I just want to see it work even better.

Also, on the download page separate the patches from the other stuff and make requires CarvalNet click-able. Link it to a page that explains what this means and how to get the upgrade if you do not have it. In fact each patch should have a more info link not just the short description. Linking is the best part of the Internet (and the bane of all us website designers).

The actual patch issue is a different story, but I do think if finding all the information and discussions about a patch was more accessible then users would be more flexible about any extra hoops they might need to go through to get a patch.

But actually this is two things. See, I would call the game fixes a patch but the art changes are really an upgrade to the game engine (I know not technically, but you get my point). When ever I have had software that has that big a change I am pleasantly surprised when they don't charge me extra for the new and improved version.

So, I will not be complaining that I have to do some extra work to get the FREE upgrade with all its new bells and whistles.

Summary: I guess in summary I am saying that we should all be glad that the developers here do not follow the models of so many other companies and act like the new upgrade is a new game and charge us accordingly. They are just better here.

____________________________
DROD RPG Released!! You must try it out it is Great!!

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[Last edited by techant at 11-12-2008 12:32 AM]

NiroZ
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I don't think mrimers saying 'you stupid fool banjooie, why didn't you think of this'. I think he is saying 'we've pointed out that we can either do this or that. In the past, you wanted that, now you seem to be wanting this. Make up your mind'. At least, that's the impression I get from reading his post.

And god, the new graphics are awesome. Give your new artist lots of sweaty man love.

(although, you really need to do something to made the wrym smiter look different to the long sword. Perhaps change the blue part to purple?)

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 11-12-2008 12:34 AM]

Lamkin
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techant wrote: When ever I have had software that has that big a change I am pleasantly surprised when they don't charge me extra for the new and improved version.

So, I will not be complaining that I have to do some extra work to get the FREE upgrade with all its new bells and whistles.

Summary: I guess in summary I am saying that we should all be glad that the developers here do not follow the models of so many other companies and act like the new upgrade is a new game and charge us accordingly. They are just better here.

I disagree. I've consistently found it to be the exception rather than the rule when a company charges (even so much as a nominal fee) for an upgrade.

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[Last edited by Lamkin at 11-12-2008 02:10 AM]

AlefBet
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Speaking for myself, I never thought "you're an idiot for even suggesting this." I don't think that I said as much in my posts, but it's really easy to lose tone in online fora, so maybe I wasn't as careful as I could have been. What I did (and still do) take issue with are the accusations of "this is the better way to do it, and since you haven't done it this way, you must be muscling your users into buying the subscription." That line of reasoning wasn't, I believe, supported, and the conclusion drawn was accusatory and personal. I think there are many things that could and should have been said before getting to that point, and I believe that if they had been, the accusations would not have flown. Again, speaking for myself and my POV on this thread, it was the accusations of bad faith (at least as they appeared to me) that crossed a line. I think suggestions (even if zealously supported despite being hard to implement) are much better received and much more constructive.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

Banjooie
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I will admit a certain degree of hyperbole, but there was an awful lot of 'but you can email' and 'why would graphics sets go in a patch' and I admit freely to overstating my case.

Briareos
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techant wrote:
I realized now that I was not the only one who was confused about patches. I had started reading "today's active posts" just so I wouldn't miss a new patch announcement because I really didn't know where else to look. Now that you point out where you have it, it makes more sense but it was not where I thought to look. I would stare at the home page and think, "Where would they put patch information? Hum, lets see, here NO here No etc. I gave up looking and resorted to search which got me here, to this thread.

Am I the only one thinking that new releases (games, patches, etc.) should also be listed on the CaravelGames news page, whether there's an Illumination to accompany it or not, and maybe on the info page for the game, as new buyers might not even be aware that there's a patch available?

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 11-12-2008 10:42 AM]

Blondbeard
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That's some very good ideas!

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Thanks, everyone, for continuing to provide helpful feedback.

Most immediately helpful to me are the specific ideas for what more I can include on the web site to help people find and get to what they want most efficiently. I'm not going to take the time to upgrade the patcher, and Matt will have to alter any web logic related to CaravelNet requirements, but I'll read over these ideas again when I get home and see what I can improve on our web pages by twiddling with the HTML.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

AtkinsSJ
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An RSS feed of patches and other general updates might be useful too, as long as it's clearly advertised.

Sillyman
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mrimer wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for continuing to provide helpful feedback.

Most immediately helpful to me are the specific ideas for what more I can include on the web site to help people find and get to what they want most efficiently. I'm not going to take the time to upgrade the patcher, and Matt will have to alter any web logic related to CaravelNet requirements, but I'll read over these ideas again when I get home and see what I can improve on our web pages by twiddling with the HTML.

Thank you for listening, unlike, unfortunately, many companies today, and fixing this. And Banjooie, thanks for bringing it up. Guys, when Banjooie's serious, you do not mock him or act like idiots telling him the same thing over and over again when he's acknowledged it and explained why that won't work. You listen. And then you either say "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." or "No, that doesn't make sense, and here's a reason why that you haven't already dismissed.". Maybe a "You didn't need to make a public debacle out of it, but I agree." Obviously, if you don't agree and your point is valid, then he did need to post about it so that you could answer him. So yes, Banjooie, the third quoted statement applies.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD

Monkey
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...
what new graphics?
then again, I can't re-download Tendry's Tale, so...

____________________________
lurking

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[Last edited by Monkey at 11-13-2008 12:56 PM]

Briareos
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Monkey wrote:
then again, I can't re-download Tendry's Tale, so...

This might be required reading...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

AtkinsSJ
Level: Master Delver

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Monkey wrote:
...
what new graphics?
then again, I can't re-download Tendry's Tale, so...

You can see a few on the DROD RPG page, where the screenshots have been silently updated.

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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And the irony is.. I bought TCB for Banjooie

geneforge
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 5
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i like DROD: RPG but i much much prefer the original DROD...when is the next drod comin out!?!?!?!?

____________________________
I want to make a protest!!!!!!

my wubba was arrested for stalking!?

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[Last edited by geneforge at 01-07-2009 01:57 AM]

12th Archivist
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geneforge wrote:
i like DROD: RPG but i much much prefer the original DROD...when is the next drod comin out!?!?!?!?

The next DROD is coming out in 2-3 YEARS. In the meantime, you'll just have to sit tight with AE, KDD, JtRH, TCB, all the SMS's, and usemade holds that have been set out for you. Have fun!

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 01-07-2009 02:08 AM]

mrimer
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After getting DROD RPG 1.1 ready for submission to IGF (congrats to all the finalists!), Caravel has spent time preparing DROD RPG, TCB and JtRH for download on the indie games section of Direct2Drive's distribution site. We also completed work on the Russian localized version of TCB. If sales from each of these venues are worth the effort, then we might look into other distribution channels or systems in the future. Also, we've been wrapping up the Winter 2008 SmS. It'll be a good one!

Before starting on TSS, I myself would like to take care of outstanding bugs that have been reported. Once patches are current, then we can work on enhancing the game engine and starting on the final chapter of Beethro's adventures.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

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Sorry for making a second post in the general board in short time, but what do you mean by "The final chapter of Beethro's adventures?" Does he, like, die or something?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

Kwakstur
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There's no such thing as "double posting across different topics."

And, what happens to Beethro is even worse... Worse than death...

He joins the dark side


Or even worse:

In a cutscene in the last room, he gets surrounded by Wubbas. He cannot move at all.
Sure, it's warm and cozy... but what will he eat?



____________________________
Also known as ExpHP everywhere else.

Chaco
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While I appreciate the fact that everybody's speculating as to what the end of the DROD series will be long before any expected information is to be released, I'll chip in and say that it's unlikely that any confirmation is going to be handed out.

My own opinion/theory is that at the end of TSS, the only thing that will happen is that Beethro won't go on any more adventures. He'll still be fine, and there will still be adventures for others to go on (since the level editor will be even more powerful than in TCB).

(I like making vague yet educated guesses.)

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Someone Else
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I think he'll rebuild the Roasted Roach Grill.

AlefBet
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Nuntar wrote:
Maybe the hero of TSS won't be Beethro after all, it'll be someone else!

You mean, like Shia LaBeouf? I'm not sure that inspires confidence.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

The Architest
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No! No!

In the TSS,you take role of Wubba!

And to the main topic : I love music in it,I like scripting and I like Tendry's voice/nature!

geneforge
Level: Roachling

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last chapter???
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oh well there is a ton of other stuff i can do, but that would really suck, DROD ending so soon, i hope caravel makes other stuff....

____________________________
I want to make a protest!!!!!!

my wubba was arrested for stalking!?

Snacko
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I wonder if there will be any SMS for TSS.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

Kwakstur
Level: Smiter

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Snacko wrote: I wonder if there will be any SMS for TSS.

I think it's possible we may have an SMS out for TSS before we even have one out for TT. We might even have an SMS out for TSS before we get TSS.

And, say, on the topic of last chapters, didn't the OGG sales pitch for TCB hidden on the front page way back in the day of *ahem* Revenge of Watch the Bar Strikes Back 2: Electric Boogaloo imply that TCB would be the final chapter, as well as claim that new elements would added to TCB through patches?

So...



...what happened?



____________________________
Also known as ExpHP everywhere else.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 01-26-2009 09:22 PM : Added quote because I'm on the new page]