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velfire
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icon New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
This is the initial posting of Tetragonal Snowflake of Death, :-O , a set of about 60 puzzles varying in difficulty. Any and all comments welcome! Thanks.
09-03-2007 at 04:26 AM
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Syntax
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Only started playing it but not too sure about hiding stuff from the player in 1N.

[EDIT]

In fact, I can't see any way to open any of the top 3 doors so presuming it's hidden in darkness which means I've gotta right-click everywhere. I won't be playing any more of this hold...

[EDIT]

Turned off alpha blending and can now see how to progress. I hope not many more rooms rely on darkness though...


[Last edited by Syntax at 09-03-2007 07:04 AM]
09-03-2007 at 06:58 AM
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The spitemaster
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Well, from what I've played there is not way to beat the entire hold without restoring. I just don't think that will fly with alot of the players. Quite good for a first hold, and one thing that I would look over is how many people will be able to understand your riddles.

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09-03-2007 at 07:08 AM
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Kevin_P86
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Yes, there is definitely no way to drop the blue door in the first level. I would recommend having all the "ending" stair cases lead you bad to the "main" hub room, so you can try a different path.

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09-03-2007 at 09:09 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
First and Only Level: Septence North is possibly the most ridiculous and tedious room I've ever encountered.

There are a lot of examples here of abusing the new elements to make longer rooms. On the other hand, there are a lot of rooms in this hold that are absolutely trivial.

Overall, although the first and only level is very large, and the not the first and only level is average-sized, I didn't see any impressive puzzles or even any sort of interesting horde management. This hold failed to entertain me.

I kept wondering as I played the hold whether the architect playtested the rooms or not.

EDIT:

Not only that, but in some rooms (First and Only Level Sence North Quarce West being the easiest to spot) the architect has used City pit as an image floor.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-03-2007 03:54 PM]
09-03-2007 at 03:50 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
This hold has a very original layout/theme. I played through it (22% explored but conquered anyway) and found it quite simple and easy but also neat and entertaining. I second the suggestions of the others! The darkness was annoying and the last staircase could indeed lead back to the central hub.

You did a good start in architecture!
09-03-2007 at 04:09 PM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Wow, Thank you. About TITFAOL: 1N, I didn't realize that the darkness might be thought of as a hiding place. It was fust supposed to be decoration, and to make the secret walls a little harder to see. I plan to remove it as well as the fact that you can only go through the right passageway at bthe end of the room. And, Only one other room relies on darkness, ant it is not complete, just darkened.

The SpiteMaster:

Do you mean the riddles in TITFAOL: 7N, 4E, I had a friend test that room and he had meagre understanding of the riddles, so I left it be. (He solved the room without complete understanding.)Do you believe I should change them?

Kevin_P86 and The SpiteMaster:

I thought over your Idea, and have noticed that if you solution is used, The player will have to go back through the rooms up to the Turtiary/secondary Hub. I got the Idea of having rooms off to the side which link back to each hub for each branch, and are connected to the stairs at the end of each of the 27 branches. Any thoughts?

Chaco:

Yes, Septence north is kinda wierd, but I think it is a form of " how few moves can you do it in" puzzle. I'm not sure how to fix it withouttotaly remaking it. I understand that this list might be long, and if it would be to tedious, just disregaudr this, but could you please tell me which rooms are "tedious" and which rooms "use the new game elements" to make more annoying rooms. And yes, I do playtest all my rooms. Lastly, I feel that the pit/floors are a puzzle, and should be treated as one. They are all clearly labeled as puzzles involving the look of the room and the player's perspective.

Meck Meck GREE:

Thank you... I plan to make all of your changes.

Everyone--Just a simple question, should I stop even trying with this hold? Is it too bad to be fixed?

Any way, I hope to hear more feedback! THX

(note--I am still working on the linking thing, so Snowflake 1.1 will be here in a few days-a week because of possible delays.)






09-03-2007 at 05:43 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
No, it's not too bad to be fixed. It's nice and I don't think you should abandon this project. It's a lot better than some other people's first timer holds.

[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 09-03-2007 06:00 PM]
09-03-2007 at 06:00 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
No, actually I meant that you're not legally allowed to copy or derive images from any of the tileset images - that includes City pits, Foundation walls, or basically anything that involves taking a screenshot of the room and turning it into an image.

could you please tell me which rooms are "tedious" and which rooms "use the new game elements" to make more annoying rooms.

Sure, since you asked so nicely :) I won't list every room, but I'll give some examples of what I'm talking about.

The First and Only Level:

Quarce North Once East - Not sure why you have so many fegundoes in the room - the only puzzle in the room is figuring out how to rotate the arrows four times.

Twice North Quarce West - I don't know how the player is supposed to find looking for the correct orb and walking around killing all the brains fun. There's no challenge.

Septence North - Okay, even if it were interesting to figure out how many moves it takes to get to the north side, there's no point, since there are no monsters and thus the room is conquered on entry. If this hold were published, this room would be considered "uninteresting" since you can enter from the south, then come back out. You could put a Conquer Token and a green door at the top if you wanted to make this room highscoreable, but I'd suggest taking out some of the builders. As it is, the room just takes way too long.

Octence North Once East - We do have the minimap for those walls, but dodging Slayers is something that requires you have the ability to see yourself and the Slayers, even if the wisps are quite visible.

Septence North Twice East - You're not making it very fun for the player here. I can't speak for others, but searching in a room full of tar for something is just annoying and boring.

Quarce North Quarce East - The only challenge in the room at all is finding the secret wall.

Sence North Thrice West - The wall shadows and the minimap are all you get. Even if you used a non-copyrighted image, this still wouldn't be fun to wander through.

Not the first and only level:

Once North - I have a hard time believing that you think walking along long paths with the occasional guard kill is fun.

Overall, this hold lacks a spirit of generosity. The hold seems to be just saying to the player "Betcha can't get past this, eh? Eh? Okay, now you'll have to do this! Now it's time to do THIS!" Instead of having puzzles that require discovery and thought, you've got rooms like Quarce North Thrice West, Novence North Twice East and Thrice North Sence West where you just kill a whole bunch of monsters.

Plus, I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of the rooms are just here because you wanted that tetragonal snowflake-shaped level. To be honest with you, I'd much rather play through ten well-made rooms than a hundred poor-quality rooms.

Now, there are still a few good areas of this hold. The First And Only Level Sence North Thrice East is actually a bit tricky, and needs to be done properly. You need to know what will happen in advance for rooms like Not the First and Only Level: Twice North and Thrice North. I just think you should focus on the parts where the player needs to manipulate or dodge, rather than the parts where the player needs to find their way through the sneaky image maze or find their way through the darkness or go kill a bunch of evil eyes or roaches.

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09-03-2007 at 06:10 PM
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roach strangler
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Don't worry! Don't drop the project!

My project COM2 Had so many flaws. But I fixed them, so can you. Just more effort and time into this hold will bring it to the holds board.
09-03-2007 at 07:57 PM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Chaco--

I didn't understand about the images. How can I fix the problem??

Tedious rooms list--

1. The Fegundos are to catch trhe unwary player who steps on one of the tokens which is hiddn in the room which is a star token. The Fegundo's will kill them.

2. Any thoughts on how to fix??

3. What are builders?? citizens??

4. I actualy changed that room to lightness right after I submitted the hold.

5. should I remove the stairs from the tar and place monsters in the tar with a green door over the stairs??

6. Yah I know, but it's still fun to blow up the roaches.

7. Any ideas on how to fix this room?

8. It's just the idea on this level...right?

And Roach Strangler--Ok, no dropping.
09-04-2007 at 01:28 AM
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Kevin_P86
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
The problem with the images is that they are copyrighted (by Caravel) and can't be used in this way without their permission.

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09-04-2007 at 01:30 AM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Cool. Can I use graphic converter and creat a similar image?
09-04-2007 at 02:05 AM
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Kevin_P86
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
You can always create your own graphics and use them however you want. Modifying someone else's graphics is different - I'm not exactly sure what is okay and what isn't in regards to modified graphics, but I'm sure someone who knows more than I do can tell you :).

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09-04-2007 at 02:07 AM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Is there anything that I need to know about how different they need to be?(if I start from scratch?)
09-04-2007 at 02:12 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
velfire wrote:
1. The Fegundoes are to catch the unwary player who steps on one of the tokens which is hidden in the room which is a star token. The Fegundoes will kill them.

I don't really like that emphasis on hiding tokens from the player. Besides, they're still visible when on top of force arrows or if you right-click on the spot.

Any ideas on how to fix?

There are some long passageways near where the brain is, so let's turn it into a puzzle. First, get rid of all those orbs - they distract the player and waste the player's time. Then, see if you can make it more difficult to get to the brains - maybe some roach queens are spawning roaches that hassle you, maybe there's some tricky stuff in the way to get across, maybe something has to be kept alive as you kill the brains. Something that keeps the player focused on a goal, and thinking about how to accomplish it.

3. What are builders?? citizens??

Builders and citizens really refer to the same thing - those little dark men who go from relay station to relay station. They're more commonly called "builders" when they're given build orders with the Build Marker script command.

4. I actually changed that room to lightness right after I submitted the hold.

Great! I think the room is tricky enough without having to squint or turn off the darkness.

5. should I remove the stairs from the tar and place monsters in the tar with a green door over the stairs??

That would help, but then the room would be too easy - plough through the tar and get all the monsters, then go up the stairs.

Perhaps you should put some walls under the tar so that if the wrong walls are uncovered some passages are blocked. But before you rush off to do that, add a visibility token near the entrance (obtained by finding an arrow token, then rotating through the possibilities until you find a closed eye) That lets the player see the walls underneath the tar, and places the focus back on thinking about how not to uncover the walls.

6. Yah I know, but it's still fun to blow up the roaches.

That's fine. Some rooms are just for fun, not for difficulty :)

7. Any ideas on how to fix this room?

You might want to turn the room into a trickier trapdoor puzzle. However, we've seen a lot of rooms where Beethro is the only thing dropping the trapdoors, so maybe you should make use of mimics and disarm tokens - two elements which radically mix up the room and throw the focus to that thinking part again. Do I disarm the mimic so he won't drop those trapdoors, or do I need the mimic to be blocked at that point?

8. It's just the idea on this level...right?

Well, if you use some self-made graphics instead of Caravel's images, I suppose we can keep the room and stumble through it. Anyone who can't figure out what's going on can either look at the minimap or ask for help on the Hints and Solutions forum.

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09-04-2007 at 02:23 AM
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bdwing
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
The word is spelled "tertiary", not "turtiary".

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09-04-2007 at 08:43 AM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (+2)  
I wasn't sure how to spell that one, thx. Thats alot of changes!

And chaco--my work time will be reduced for a while, but I will put out Tetragonal 1.1 in the next few days. It will include:

1. All end stairways leading to rooms which link to the hubs.
2. Decreased Darkness.
3. Fixed "Tertiary" Error.
4. Edited rooms.
5. A legal pit image.

Cool?
09-04-2007 at 03:03 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Yeah, if you do those five things then the hold should improve markedly :)

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09-04-2007 at 03:04 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
velfire wrote:
And chaco--my work time will be reduced for a while, but I will put out Tetragonal 1.1 in the next few days....
Semi-random upmod on this post, to encourage velfire for his fine use of the architecture board. That is, he posted a hold, read people's comments, and worked to improve the hold based on the comments (instead of, say, ignoring them wantonly). Bravo!
09-04-2007 at 09:57 PM
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calamarain
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Yep, it's exactly what he should do. Post, wait for comments and most importantly of all, he *LISTENED* to the comments :)

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09-04-2007 at 10:26 PM
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velfire
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Chaco--

Twice Notrh, Quarce west (TITFAOL)

How would I " make it so that something must be kept alive to exit the room??

And, this is a silly question, but in the rooms with the pit image, how do I change the setting on the image floor from the illegal image to my image? The image is attached here by the way. :smile

Ill do more tommorow. (sry for the slowness. )
09-05-2007 at 05:09 AM
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Kevin_P86
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Regarding the image problem: I assume you are asking how you change the image associated with that room? Press F9 - that will bring up a list of images that have been imported into the hold, along with allowing you to import another one.

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09-05-2007 at 05:11 AM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Here's the pit image--what do you think? Would write more, but have to go. sry. We'll discuss more rooms later.

[Last edited by velfire at 09-05-2007 05:20 AM : Mistyped]
09-05-2007 at 05:17 AM
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Kevin_P86
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Well for one thing there seems to be a problem with that image file - whatever it is, it sure isn't a .jpg.

And like I said above - Press F9 when editing the room to change the image associated with that room.

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09-05-2007 at 05:22 AM
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velfire
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
Alright--here it is as a png. I will make the change later. Sorry for my slowness again.
09-05-2007 at 02:57 PM
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Monkey
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
The image doesn't exist.

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09-05-2007 at 11:03 PM
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velfire
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I don't understand...what do you mean?? It is a .png from graphic convertor... :?
09-05-2007 at 11:17 PM
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Monkey
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
I can't view the image.

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09-05-2007 at 11:17 PM
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icon Re: New Hold for Testing: Tetragonal Snowflake of Death (0)  
OK, now it really is a .png file. Sorry about the confusion.
09-05-2007 at 11:23 PM
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