vittro
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When I release holds for testing I'd like to make some rooms unaccessible from the editor and others that you can play but not modify or look into scripts or scrolls. Useful for good secret scrools or secret scripts.

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eytanz
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I think the request is to prevent testers from cheating and looking ahead at story elements, while still allowing them access to the editor in case there are puzzle bugs that stop progress.

While I understand the request, I think it's not really worthwhile - you either trust your testers, or you don't. If you don't, just give them an uneditable hold, and consider getting better testers next time. Also, if the rooms involved are purely story rooms, you might just want to leave them out in early stages of testing.

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vittro
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Ehm... I mean you can see those rooms in the editor and play them selecting any square to start, but can't read scrolls or npcs or modify the room.

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eytanz
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Huh? Why would you want people to be able to do that? I'm genuinely confused here - it seems to me that if you let people do as much as that, then there's no much point in hiding the scrolls (they could just start next to them) or scripting (people starting anywhere in the room will screw up scripting anyway, and it's best if they know what to do).

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Tim
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I'm a bit indifferent whether this feature is available to testers, but if I am not able to see the scripts as an Hold Administrator, then I will prevent this kind of holds being uploaded.

Since I started testing holds for HA (only a few weeks ago), I found at least 4 (heavily) scripted rooms that had "unintended" solutions. [Edit: These solutions could only be found by reading the scripts.]

Whether these solutions are really unintended solutions, easter eggs, bad scripting, or even intended shortcuts for the architect to cheat on CaravelNet, I won't know if I can't see them. In that case, I'll be on the safe side and say that anything with the slightest hint of cheating is a "no-no" to me.

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[Last edited by Tim at 03-08-2007 11:07 PM]

Jatopian
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Testers have been known to catch story and speech problems also, so this isn't really desirable.

Tim wrote:
Whether these solutions are really unintended solutions, easter eggs, bad scripting, or even intended shortcuts for the architect to cheat on CaravelNet, I won't know if I can't see them. In that case, I'll be on the safe side and say that anything with the slightest hint of cheating is a "no-no" to me.

Scripting puzzles are legitimate, and so are easter eggs. It saddens me that an HA would let his personal tastes figure in. What's next, someone telling Larry 'no more serpents'?

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Tahnan
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Jatopian wrote:
Scripting puzzles are legitimate, and so are easter eggs. It saddens me that an HA would let his personal tastes figure in.

But with all of the arguments we've had over "what's fair in #1s", would you really want to see an architect upload a hold in which every room is scripted so that executing the commands "wait, wait, turn CW, turn CCW, wait" at the start will cause mimics to appear throughout the room, killing every monster in it? That is, enabling anyone who knows the cheat code, i.e. the architect, to get a whole bunch of six-move #1 scores after everyone's optimized the room to its otherwise ideal hundreds of moves?

NiroZ
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Tahnan wrote:
But with all of the arguments we've had over "what's fair in #1s", would you really want to see an architect upload a hold in which every room is scripted so that executing the commands "wait, wait, turn CW, turn CCW, wait" at the start will cause mimics to appear throughout the room, killing every monster in it? That is, enabling anyone who knows the cheat code, i.e. the architect, to get a whole bunch of six-move #1 scores after everyone's optimized the room to its otherwise ideal hundreds of moves?

I'm sure the backlash at such an event would be such that I wouldn't even dream of someone doing it.

eytanz
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Jatopian wrote:
Testers have been known to catch story and speech problems also, so this isn't really desirable.

Tim wrote:
Whether these solutions are really unintended solutions, easter eggs, bad scripting, or even intended shortcuts for the architect to cheat on CaravelNet, I won't know if I can't see them. In that case, I'll be on the safe side and say that anything with the slightest hint of cheating is a "no-no" to me.

Scripting puzzles are legitimate, and so are easter eggs. It saddens me that an HA would let his personal tastes figure in. What's next, someone telling Larry 'no more serpents'?

I don't think that's what Tim meant. What I think he meant is that if he is not sure of the architect's intentions, he will err on the side of caution. Which normally means telling the architect - there's something weird in room X, can you please tell me if it is intentional?

Remember also that the hold approval process is not an individual one - any decision by any hold admin is visible to all the other hold admins, and can be overridden if enough other hold admins disagree with it. That hasn't happened yet; but it could. And if Tim, or any other HA, systematically makes decisions which the other HAs disagree with, they probably will lose HA status.

Also note that at least some of the hold admins - such as those of us who are also devs - don't need the architect to give us editing permission to see into their holds.


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Banjooie
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Jatopian wrote:
What's next, someone telling Larry 'no more serpents'?

is it can be tiem plees?!

In other news, I believe with the concept of putting cheats into our rooms, we have opened a pandora's box. A pandora's box of LAWLZ.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 03-09-2007 05:58 AM]

Beef Row
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Banjooie wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
What's next, someone telling Larry 'no more serpents'?

is it can be tiem plees?!

In other news, I believe with the concept of putting cheats into our rooms, we have opened a pandora's box. A pandora's box of LAWLZ.

Heh, pre-hold board it would've been absurdly easy. One entrance room with a complex scripted code (IE: 8,5,5,1,CW,3,4) to open a door out, followed by 500 rooms with 1-wide corridor with one roach and force arrows to keep you on the right path. Enter code, tape down a walk key, grab 500 unreclaimable #1s, be shunned forever, and have your hold erased.

But it would've been funny to see someone try. maybe as an April Fool's hold or something.

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Tim
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Beef Row wrote:
Heh, pre-hold board it would've been absurdly easy. One entrance room with a complex scripted code (IE: 8,5,5,1,CW,3,4) to open a door out, followed by 500 rooms with 1-wide corridor with one roach and force arrows to keep you on the right path. Enter code, tape down a walk key, grab 500 unreclaimable #1s, be shunned forever, and have your hold erased.

I think I don't really need to explain what I meant by my last post, I think most of you got it by now. (sorry, been very busy lately so I couldn't reply earlier.)

But really, I do want to err on the side of caution. After all, the HA idea was meant to make sure CaravelNet scoring to be fair to everyone. "Cheat codes" like what Beef Row had described is not really fair, is it?

-- Tim

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coppro
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AFAIK, one could still be slipped in and easily be missed by the HAs, unless they have all been given special builds to Anyone Edit the process.

Have they?

NiroZ
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coppro wrote:
AFAIK, one could still be slipped in and easily be missed by the HAs, unless they have all been given special builds to Anyone Edit the process.

Have they?

I think, somehow, that HA's can make any hold anyone edit.

Chaco
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Actually, I'm not sure about that being a universal HA ability, I think it's a DROD-coding-team ability.

They can refuse to vote for promotion until the author posts an Anyone Edit version, yes, that's doable.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-10-2007 12:10 AM]

Someone Else
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Or, if they are paranoid, the architect can somehow distribute it to the HAs without anyone else one the forum getting to use the anyone edit version.

coppro
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Chaco wrote:
Actually, I'm not sure about that being a universal HA ability, I think it's a DROD-coding-team ability.

Compiling a build with this functionality is not difficult (add 7 characters to a certain file and voila!). It's just whether or not they chose to give them out.

Kevin_P86
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File: a certain file and voila! (12 bytes)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

coppro wrote:

Chaco wrote:
Actually, I'm not sure about that being a universal HA ability, I think it's a DROD-coding-team ability.

Compiling a build with this functionality is not difficult (add 7 characters to a certain file and voila!). It's just whether or not they chose to give them out.

It didn't work...

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Someone Else
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Kevin_P86 wrote:

coppro wrote:

Chaco wrote:
Actually, I'm not sure about that being a universal HA ability, I think it's a DROD-coding-team ability.

Compiling a build with this functionality is not difficult (add 7 characters to a certain file: 'and voila!'). It's just whether or not they chose to give them out.

It didn't work...

Oh.
There. Fixed.