gamer_extreme_101
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A couple of days should be good for this one. Let's hope that there are no errors, and that I don't have to make another tiebreaker.

-Patrick

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Alneyan
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You have a tie for the first question now. I'm sure that's relevant, somehow.

I don't mind voting again and again, though. I sell my vote to the highest bidder, so more votes is just another occasion to make some extra money.

Chaco
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I have also voted to further my evil scheme.

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Jatopian
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I really think that Smitemasters' Selections shouldn't get awards. It should be like the Olympics, wherein those who do it for the love of it get rewarded.

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coppro
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I would tend to agree.

Ezlo
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I agree as well.

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 11-09-2006 02:34 AM]

eytanz
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Jatopian wrote:
I really think that Smitemasters' Selections shouldn't get awards. It should be like the Olympics, wherein those who do it for the love of it get rewarded.

And why do you assume that people making SmS's aren't doing it for the love of it?

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NiroZ
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eytanz wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
I really think that Smitemasters' Selections shouldn't get awards. It should be like the Olympics, wherein those who do it for the love of it get rewarded.

And why do you assume that people making SmS's aren't doing it for the love of it?

No, but they have the caravel team to work with, and to ensure the storyline is of sufficient quality, and insert voice acting.

Briareos
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Jatopian wrote:
I really think that Smitemasters' Selections shouldn't get awards. It should be like the Olympics, wherein those who do it for the love of it get rewarded.

Maybe so, but... isn't it a tad late now that the poll is almost over?

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Alneyan
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Agreed with Briarenos, about the whole lateness of things.

The one problem I see with Smitemaster's Selection is that they have a much broader audience when they ship out, since they are official releases. If more people played the hold, it should have an easier time gaining votes. I don't think it's really much of a problem, though, given that the majority of voters are probably very involved (I know I at least glance at all holds that come out).

Voice-acting is limited to its own category (where they would be no nominations, if not for Smitemaster's Selection), and it shouldn't be *that* hard to find some help with storylines. Story-telling *is* one of the categories in the tiebreak, after all.

Jatopian
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Briareos wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
I really think that Smitemasters' Selections shouldn't get awards. It should be like the Olympics, wherein those who do it for the love of it get rewarded.

Maybe so, but... isn't it a tad late now that the poll is almost over?

I know, I know... It just irks me that Beethro's Teacher is winning both categories. It just seems unfair to the underdogs.

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Syntax
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Maybe you shouldn't discuss the votes until everyone has voted and/or the poll has closed

Pilchard VIII
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Well, that's the end, and Beethro's Teacher won both of them.

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Briareos
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Pilchard VIII wrote:
Well, that's the end, and Beethro's Teacher won both of them.

Also, Patrick's got his smiley-face-pasted-over-Jon avatar back.

Hooray for "Why am I not happy?"

(Although the line should probably be "We're bachelors, baby" by now... )

np: Underworld - Lovely Broken Thing (RiverRun Project)

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tokyokid
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King Pilchard VIII's Dungeon came pretty close to winning hold of the year. I think it should've won, and voted against Beethro's Teacher in each category. I thought that the Deadlies' were supposed to give underdog holds to procure some glory.

Doom
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With all the recent negativity, let me have a few words.

History of People's Choice Awards
Discussion topic for Second Annual Deadlies

This is the clarification that was decided last time:

RoboBob3000 wrote:
And I also didn't mean to suggest that SS holds shouldn't be included, although I will admit I thought about it. The only hold I can think of removing from eligibility is KDD 2.0

There were no complaints even though Larry Murk's Perfection got first places in Difficulty and Hold of the Year categories.

I can understand the potential unfairness issues, but even then, I'm not sure where you should draw the line. Caravel does a lot to make SmS holds better (In the case of Beethro's Teacher: story, most of script, voices and more playtesting). But then, there's plenty of stuff that the architect has to do own their own.

"Hold of the year", as a term, sounds to me like it should include all holds released during the year, no matter what. (otherwise even the category name is misleading).

In any case, I'm certainly annoyed that so many people are expressing their opinions now that the whole thing is over, when Patrick made the Third Annual Choices topic more than 2 months ago. The poll was even restarted twice.

I doubt this would've come up at all if BT hadn't been voted for so much. (Which I appreciate even if we decide to draw SmS holds out of this from now on)

Syntax
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Well... I haven't commented on BT's thread yet as I'm only half way through, but as a hold... well... it *has* to be the one of the year.

Replicating something like King Pilchard VIII's would be extremely difficult (it is one of the most memorable ones in my opinion - great imagination), but replicating BT? I don't think that is even remotely possible. Doom is a sheer genius and BT is a master-piece.

If Michelangelo played DROD, and BT was a painting, he'd lay down his tools and take up horticulture.

Pilchard VIII
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Yes, this is going to sound really biased, due to the fact that I have been competing, so try to put that aside for a moment.

Yes, I know that Beethro's Teacher is a phenomenal and tricky hold (personally I gave up on Level One), and I know that it is one of Caravel's best Smitemaster Selections, but surely it does seem unfair on other holds if it won four out of eight of the awards it was potentially eligable for.

For example, silver's first-time hold, 'A Small Diversion' was a brilliant hold, and I should know, having been with it through the whole beta-testing stages, yet it failed to scoop any awards, even though it recieved an average score of 8.6, whereas Beethro's Teacher recieved 8.2.

And then there's Larrymurk's Magic Show. Those rooms had me pulling my hair out in frustration, yet it was proven that all rooms were solvable. Whereas, with Beethro's Teacher, yes it was tricky, but many rooms were accused of being impossible. Again, Magic Show got a 9.1, as opposed to Beethro's Teacher's 8.2.

Also, the Deadlies are about realising the greatness of individuals, not individuals with a team of others to help them add story and voices and possibly rooms.

With that aside, and on a note completely unrelated to the argument, congratulations Doom.



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eytanz
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Pilchard VIII wrote:
And then there's Larrymurk's Magic Show. Those rooms had me pulling my hair out in frustration, yet it was proven that all rooms were solvable. Whereas, with Beethro's Teacher, yes it was tricky, but many rooms were accused of being impossible. Again, Magic Show got a 9.1, as opposed to Beethro's Teacher's 8.2.

I agree with everything you said, actually, but this paragraph left me confused. While people accused BT rooms of being impossible, they were proven wrong, very quickly. So what is the difference between the two in this regard?

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Pilchard VIII
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Blondbeard
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Pilchard VIII wrote:


And then there's Larrymurk's Magic Show. Those rooms had me pulling my hair out in frustration, yet it was proven that all rooms were solvable. Whereas, with Beethro's Teacher, yes it was tricky, but many rooms were accused of being impossible. Again, Magic Show got a 9.1, as opposed to Beethro's Teacher's 8.2.

Also, the Deadlies are about realising the greatness of individuals, not individuals with a team of others to help them add story and voices and possibly rooms.

I fail to see how you can find it justified to say something like this. You didn't play Beethro's Teacher. I played both Beethro's Teacher and Magic Show, and while I like Magic Show a bit better I would like to see the person who has played both holds and claims that Magic Show is better in "Creative Design in the field of Difficulty". It isn't. Almost every room of Beethro's Teacher contains clever tricks. It's loaded with clever tricks. Also: Doom did his own rooms. All the tricks are created by one man. A genious. He didn't have a team of others to help him.

Edit: Another thing I ought to mention is that if you look at the standard deviaton for Beethro's Teacher you realize that there indeed are quite a lot of peoples who probably gave it a perfect ten for overall raiting. They probably do think that Beethro's Teacher is the hold of the year.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-11-2006 07:02 PM]

Doom
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Pilchard VIII wrote:
For example, silver's first-time hold, 'A Small Diversion' ... yet it failed to scoop any awards, even though it recieved an average score of 8.6, whereas Beethro's Teacher recieved 8.2.
...
Again, Magic Show got a 9.1, as opposed to Beethro's Teacher's 8.2.

Well, yes. Those are the average ratings. Why did BT get more votes, then? I think it's because BT has much higher standard deviation (2,01 at the moment). This means that there were a lot of people who rated it relatively low because of too high difficulty, but the higher end got more votes as well. The high votes are probably more significant when you're allowed to choose only one option.

Remember also that these were entirely different categories. A small diversion was nominated for story, and Magic Show for creative difficulty. Those aren't directly comparable by average ratings.

Click here to view the secret text

×Touche. I had been told that the hold had to be re-uploaded several times due to impossible rooms. If they had indeed been impossible, then does it really count towards the factor of difficulty positively or negatively? That's a question I'll leave to you to decide.

I'm still not seeing what that has to do with this topic. For one reason or another, a few rooms were impossible after the intial upload, but those were fixed as soon as possible (unfortunately delayed slightly by the several-day-long downtime of the site).

larrymurk
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Congrats to Doom and all the other nominees and winners. I'm just glad to see all the great holds being produced. Keep being creative everyone!

Pilchard VIII
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Well, I'm obviously wasting my time. But before I finish :

Blondbeard wrote:You didn't play Beethro's Teacher... Another thing I ought to mention is that if you look at the standard deviaton for Beethro's Teacher you realize that there indeed are quite a lot of peoples who probably gave it a perfect ten for overall raiting. They probably do think that Beethro's Teacher is the hold of the year.

I regret to say that the first part is absolute nonsense, and the second part could potentially be wrong. I have played Beethro's Teacher, and seen all of the rooms thanks to Ezlo's save file, and I played Magic Show, which I saw all of the rooms in the editor. I'm not disputing about whether it's more difficult or not. Doom admitted in the previous post that some were impossible on the first upload. So now you tell me if that affects the difficulty or not. And by the way, I'm no maths genius, but because Magic Show got a 9.1 with a SD (the square root of the variance - Wikipedia) of 0.77, whereas Beethro's Teacher got an 8.2, with a SD of 2.01. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if SD shows how spread out the data is, then Magic Show logically should have a higher ratio of high marks, eg. 9s and 10s, whereas BT does, but also has a possible amount of low marks, eg. 6s and 7s.

Doom wrote:Remember also that these were entirely different categories. A small diversion was nominated for story, and Magic Show for creative difficulty. Those aren't directly comparable by average ratings.

What I am trying to say is that it seems a little odd. Looking at the average votes, it seems that A Small Diversion and Magic Show gained higher marks (Magic Show got higher than KDD2.0, and A Small Diversion matched it), yet it seems a little odd that in lieu of these facts that each one of them failed to have these achievements recognised here. I'm not purposely slagging off your hold because we competed, quite the opposite. My point that I'm trying to get across is that this is about the holds that sometimes go unrecognised, yet it seems very unfair if one holds snags a total of four of eleven awards, that's over a third of them! Now you tell me, regardless of how good it is (which it is great), is that fair?

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Doom
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Pilchard VIII wrote:
Well, I'm obviously wasting my time

What makes you think so...? I'm sure your opinions are respected, and I'm not really disagreeing with a lot either.

Doom admitted in the previous post that some were impossible on the first upload. So now you tell me if that affects the difficulty or not.

No, it doesn't affect the hold difficulty that there were impossible rooms. I wouldn't rate your hold low because an early version of it was buggy.

Doom wrote:Remember also that these were entirely different categories. A small diversion was nominated for story, and Magic Show for creative difficulty. Those aren't directly comparable by average ratings.

My point that I'm trying to get across is that this is about the holds that sometimes go unrecognised, yet it seems very unfair if one holds snags a total of four of eleven awards, that's over a third of them! Now you tell me, regardless of how good it is (which it is great), is that fair?

Yeah, that's true. But there's a simple solution. The results were so even in many categories that listing runner-ups should be only fair. You could also say that hold X was a Smitemaster's Selection, but I don't think it'd do a big difference.

Oh, and you could throw acting out from that reasoning, since non-SmS holds don't really do it.

Pilchard VIII
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Doom wrote:

Pilchard VIII wrote:
Well, I'm obviously wasting my time

What makes you think so...? I'm sure your opinions are respected, and I'm not really disagreeing with a lot either.

Wait, I left that in my last post?

Doom wrote:

Pilchard VIII wrote:
Doom admitted in the previous post that some were impossible on the first upload. So now you tell me if that affects the difficulty or not.

No, it doesn't affect the hold difficulty that there were impossible rooms. I wouldn't rate your hold low because an early version of it was buggy.

Fair enough. Although I was commenting on difficulty and not score.

Doom wrote:

Pilchard VIII wrote:

Doom wrote:Remember also that these were entirely different categories. A small diversion was nominated for story, and Magic Show for creative difficulty. Those aren't directly comparable by average ratings.

My point that I'm trying to get across is that this is about the holds that sometimes go unrecognised, yet it seems very unfair if one holds snags a total of four of eleven awards, that's over a third of them! Now you tell me, regardless of how good it is (which it is great), is that fair?

Yeah, that's true. But there's a simple solution. The results were so even in many categories that listing runner-ups should be only fair. You could also say that hold X was a Smitemaster's Selection, but I don't think it'd do a big difference.

Fair enough. So yours would be SmS of the year and hold of the year, whereas mine is 2nd best? That sounds good.

Now that I've pwned my step-brother ata game of SSBM, I feel much better. So that's me done.

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[Last edited by Pilchard VIII at 11-11-2006 08:09 PM]

gamer_extreme_101
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I'm curious to know if anyone's opinion of this incident will change knowing that Henri was the recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award (With a commanding lead over all nominees, I might add).

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Blondbeard
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I'm curious to know if anyone's opinion of this incident will change knowing that Henri was the recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award (With a commanding lead over all nominees, I might add).

I fail to see how that could possibly make Beethro's Teacher be considered a worse (or better) hold Why should anyone's opinion change?

Pilchard VIII
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I've had a play through of Beethro's Teacher, and yes, it is better than I originally thought. So now I know why it won.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Okay, the red carpet's been rolled out, all of the greatest architects, writers, designers, and actors/actresses have mingled with each other, they've all been gathered together inside the auditorium, and the awards are ready to be handed out. Let's see who won!

The award for the Most Promising Hold goes to....Geomatrx for his hold MetDROiD Prime: Echoes. This is his sixth nomination and his third win.

The award for Storyline Excellence goes to....Erik Hermansen for the storyline to the hold Beethro's Teacher. This is his first nomination and win in this category. (Yes, Erik wrote the story to Beethro's Teacher. There's a bit of a story behind it, but just know that Erik is responsible for the story that everyone sees)

The award for Technical Design Excellence in the field of Scripting goes to... Stuwy for his Channel One Suite. This is his first nomination and his first win.

The award of the Technical Design Excellence in the field of Layout and Aesthetics award goes to...Jacob, for his hold Figure or Ground. This is (Surprisingly) his second nomination and his first win.

The award for Technical Design Excellence in the field of Concept goes to...Rabscuttle for his hold Tar Ballroom. This is his first nomination and win.

The award for Creative Design in the field of Difficulty goes to...Henri for his hold Beethro's Teacher. This is his sixth nomination and his fourth win.

The award for Creative Design in the field of Entertainment goes to...Tim for his hold Tunnel Vision. This is his second nomination and his first win.

The award for Graphics Design Excellence goes to...William for his modification Volcano. This is his second nomination and his second win, taking the category two years in a row.

The award for Best Actor/Actress in a Leading Role goes to...Tony Porter, for his role as Denfry in Beethro's Teacher. This is his first nomination and win.

The award for Novice Architect Excellence goes to...Elfstone for her hold Seasons. This is her second nomination and her first win.

The Lifetime Achievement Award for 2006 goes to...Henri. I have a hold in the works to showcase some of his greatest work, but it simply isn't done yet. Expect it to come soon!

And finally, what we've all been waiting for, the winner of the Hold of the Year goes to..Henri Kareinen and the Caravel Team for the hold Beethro's Teacher. This is the fourth award that this hold has received this year, making it the big winner of the season.

I'd like to thank everyone who voted and nominated holds this year. With that, all that's left is to reflect back and think about how we can make this better for next year. Mainly, in regards to SmS holds. If you have any constructive criticism, I'd love to hear it.

-Patrick

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[Last edited by gamer_extreme_101 at 11-23-2006 09:36 PM]