Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion.

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Doom
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Erik, you seem to have made an illegal jump after the 14th tile in your solution. You're jumping to the right when there's a free tile in front of you.

Or is it just me misunderstanding the rules...?

07-23-2006 at 10:31 PM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Sergenth wrote:
My guess is that a jumping snake puzzle would be harder with large open areas and a few single solid squares spread out inside, giving less predictable "should I jump or turn right" choices.

Yeah, I agree. The 2nd puzzle I gave didn't have that many forks, or it might have been extremely difficult.

With this third puzzle, you can figure out where the snake must end up on it's last turn (which is the neat, and FUN deduction element EDIT I think I'm wrong about that... EDIT2 Nope... just more than one way to get there!) Before getting there, I found areas that "had" to be entered from certain directions, so I was able to work backwards and fill in as I made mistakes. It only took me 4 tries where I actually filled in lines, but I did do a few minutes of analyzing before.

Yeah, I think deduction needs to be present, or the whole thing is just a big boring node search. The puzzles get more fun as the movement rules become more familiar too. I wonder if I can make the rules simpler or at least more simply expressed.

More elements would make this even more fun, just as more elements in DROD make it more fun and mentally taxing. However, I think eah map could only stand to have one additional type of puzzle element before it becomes to busy to work out on paper.

Yeah, if we were going for a computer game, then adding a bunch of elements would be easier. Also, you'd have interface advantages like undo and rule enforcement to make finding solutions easier. But I also like the simpler form of the puzzle that could be printed out on paper and solved with pencil while riding on a bus. Probably as it stands, the puzzle asks for a little too much commitment from a newcomer in learning the rules.

-Erik

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07-23-2006 at 10:32 PM

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Tim
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Doom wrote:
Erik, you seem to have made an illegal jump after the 14th tile in your solution. You're jumping to the right when there's a free tile in front of you.

Or is it just me misunderstanding the rules...?

You have not misunderstood, he made a mistake

This is why I said that it's very hard to check if a solution is correct

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[Last edited by Tim at 07-23-2006 10:33 PM]

07-23-2006 at 10:32 PM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Doom wrote:
Erik, you seem to have made an illegal jump after the 14th tile in your solution. You're jumping to the right when there's a free tile in front of you.

Or is it just me misunderstanding the rules...?

Ugh. You're right. I better fix that.

-Erik

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07-23-2006 at 10:35 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Tell me if I solved Tim's 4a, or if I'm just seeing things. The hardest part was the west section, and yeah, the bottleneck is telling and challenging and fun.

07-23-2006 at 10:40 PM

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Tim
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Sergenth wrote:
Tell me if I solved Tim's 4a, or if I'm just seeing things. The hardest part was the west section, and yeah, the bottleneck is telling and challenging and fun.

You are not allowed to jump to the left during your first jump...

Please download the 4b version, as the other ones are not solvable.

[Last edited by Tim at 07-23-2006 10:44 PM]

07-23-2006 at 10:43 PM

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Elfstone
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Here's another jumping snake puzzle I made that people can try if they like. I'm not sure if this one is easier or harder than the last one. I tried to make it something you could work out with more deduction as opposed to trial and error. I don't think it's very difficult. What do you think? And more importantly, is it fun?

These are fun. Quite quick to work out, but my computer skills (or lack of) make drawing in the route very slow.

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07-23-2006 at 10:46 PM

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Sergenth
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

I'm looking at Erik's 4b solution and I can't see the mistake, but either way...

Quoth the Rules:

Although you can't directly choose the snake's direction of travel, you may make the snake jump on any turn.

and to clarify what "turn" means

Each turn the snake moves and occupies one additional square,

EDIT Oh! Does the snake jump in a deterministic way as well? I've been using jumps as a free choice of direction. :huh

EDIT2

Here's where I tripped up in reading the rules:

Although you can't directly choose the snake's direction of travel, you may make the snake jump on any turn.

I took this to mean that being unable to choose a direction of travel meant being unable to choose a direction while slithering but that choosing to jump did not neccesarily follow this limitation.

A revision to the rules that would confuse me less would be:

Anytime you encounter a wall or previously placed body part, you can choose to make the snake jump over these obstacles, in a straight line, into an empty space. Although you can choose to jump rather than slither, the snake's jumping direction, like it's slithering, is still determined by a set of ordered rules:

<the list of 4 rules>

The snake cannot actually choose to jump on any turn.

These puzzles aren't too hard for paper... well, for several photocopies worth... it's just since they are very spatial, they need lots of spatial explanation. An illustration showing how a snake MUST jump in a certain direction is as needed as the illustrations showing how a snake must slither in certain directions.

[Last edited by Sergenth at 07-23-2006 11:11 PM]

07-23-2006 at 10:48 PM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Tim wrote:
This is why I said that it's very hard to check if a solution is correct

I see your point now. I'm starting to doubt that this makes a good paper game. It seems just complicated enough that it would always leave you wondering if you screwed up somewhere. And after you've filled in a solution, it's quite difficult to review it for accuracy, since many of the lines drawn on the grid aren't present at any particular turn. So I think we need to get Tahnan to make a computerized version we can all play.

If anyone cares, my corrected solution is reattached to my earlier post.

-Erik

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07-23-2006 at 10:52 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (+1)

Sergenth wrote:
EDIT Oh! Does the snake jump in a deterministic way as well? I've been using jumps as a free choice of direction.

Just in case you've missed, the rules are as follows:

The landing square is chosen as follows:

1. If an empty square in front of the jumping snake is available, he lands there.
2. If an empty square to the right of the jumping snake is available, he lands there.
3. If an empty square to the left of the jumping snake is available, he lands there.
4. If an empty square behind the jumping snake is available, he lands there, coiling back over himself in a dramatic u-turn!

If I were you, I would check my pre-contest submission as well.

07-23-2006 at 11:04 PM

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TripleM
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (+5)

Its probably got thousands of bugs, but if you have Java 1.5 installed in your browser, try going here.

07-24-2006 at 01:28 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

TripleM wrote:
Its probably got thousands of bugs, but if you have Java 1.5 installed in your browser, try going.

That's really great! One thing that's interesting to try: just create a big empty space, like 40x40, plop down 3 or 4 simple walls, and then play. Weirdly, it makes a pretty good game without even trying to design specific puzzles. The solution quickly becomes complex by introducing just a few disturbances that prevent a simple spiral fill.

-Erik

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07-24-2006 at 02:09 AM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Oh, also it was Tim that designed the 3rd puzzle shown in the applet, not Ezlo.

-Erik

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07-24-2006 at 02:10 AM

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Chaco
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Nifty.

Uh, does this make the contest basically obsolete?

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07-24-2006 at 02:28 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Chaco wrote:
Uh, does this make the contest basically obsolete?

Not even slightly. The rules for the contest itself will be quite... uh... enhanced.

-Erik

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07-24-2006 at 03:01 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

I bet we have to make our own jumping snake puzzle! I'll bet 1,000,000,000 invisble greckles on it. Who wants to bet with me?

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07-24-2006 at 03:05 AM

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Tahnan
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Tim wrote:

I guess my problem is that I can't always apply the rules correctly. I always need to recheck if all my jumps follow the rules a few times.
That's exactly why I asked about writing a helper applet.

07-24-2006 at 04:30 AM

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TripleM
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

I actually had the starting point in the 'official' puzzle wrong, so I've fixed that, and also added the notation so that you can copy and paste it straight into the answer thread, if you use it.

As for your bet Ezlo.. I think I'll pass

Although, the way Erik says 'enhanced', I think its possible it will just be a puzzle with lots and lots more features to solve..

07-24-2006 at 05:24 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Hmm, more features, right. I wonder how would the rules be for several snakes at once. Probably something like the uppermost snake goes first, leftmost for those tied, and they all jump (or not) at once. Or maybe even separately, not sure what has more puzzle potential. And you lose if one of them gets stuck...

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07-24-2006 at 06:39 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (+1)

Here's a simple one for practice. Much easier than Tim's

Light purple is floor - I used that to position the inner obstacles. Red squares are jumpable and black squares are not.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-24-2006 05:15 PM]

07-24-2006 at 05:15 PM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

That one is pretty easy. I can just do it with my eyes. I believe there are 2 solutions and 4 non-solutions, assuming that you must jump if no other movement is available.

-Erik

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07-24-2006 at 05:21 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

May i try making one?

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07-24-2006 at 05:54 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Can't see why any one would say no. Go right ahead!

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07-24-2006 at 05:56 PM

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Chaco
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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Here's a third solution to my puzzle, which is the least obvious variant.

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07-24-2006 at 06:17 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Jeff_Ray... wrote:
May i try making one?

Jeff, that would be cool. Also, you might try using TripleM's applet to design and test it.

-Erik

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07-24-2006 at 07:28 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Very interesting puzzle design. The quick 'a-ha' moment for me was just realizing that the your actual decision points are relatively few, even for a large map. Which doesn't make the puzzle easy, but it helps to find focus.

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07-24-2006 at 08:27 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

I'm done with it. Most of the puzzles may seem weird, but i din't knew it was meant to be done with only the control of the jump... :/

Anyways, i've made some rather unrelated puzzles.

You must cover all of the squares, but since i din't knew, you can control the snake's moves. Though, to make things equally harder, you can't jump backwards. New elements were added, and it is used as a .hold file. Happy game!

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07-24-2006 at 08:44 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

I found the movement rules a bit complicated at first, but now that I've learned them, searching for solutions is actually quite fun. I've also started thinking about how many solutions the entry puzzle has. So far, I've found ~~five~~ seven, although two of those are nearly identical.

Edit: I found another two, which were also nearly identical.

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[Last edited by Watcher at 07-24-2006 11:42 PM]

07-24-2006 at 11:15 PM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (0)

Was it about Erik's or mine?

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07-25-2006 at 02:27 AM

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Re: Jumping Snake Puzzle Discussion. (+1)

I just love these puzzles. They're fun to make and to figure out.

Here's another puzzle by me. It's harder than the first one. I skipped making the puzzle myself and just took a screenshot from TripleM's applet. Thanks, TripleM!

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-25-2006 12:43 PM]

07-25-2006 at 12:42 PM

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