Chaco
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Oh, gee. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. This is probably something I should fix.

I could probably fix that by putting trapdoors in that entire area - then if you made a mimic outside of there and put it in, you wouldn't be able to get out when you entered and would have to do the entire room in the entrance (which I could make incredibly inconvenient with proper door placement)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-25-2007 01:53 AM]

Citrus
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I SOOOOO want to download this, but I'm going to wait for the final version now that it's about a week or two away. I'm almost anticipating it's release as much as the last SmS's!

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Chaco
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I've trapdoor'd the path, carving out an extra tile , and it works perfectly - after the mimic drops the trapdoors in Tim's solution, you don't have enough room to get a mimic up in the trapdoor area.

Also I found some scripting to get rid of.

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Tim
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Any chance for a new version?

Oh, and I'm stuck in LIII: 1N2E. What are you supposed to be doing there?

Edit: Personally, I thought the secret rooms doesn't need changing, but I just wanted to show you an unintended solution.

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[Last edited by Tim at 02-26-2007 10:55 PM]

Chaco
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Uh, if it's level three, Once North, Twice East you're really talking about, then you have to kill all the roaches and go down the stairs.

Probably it was a different room, right?

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-26-2007 11:02 PM]

Tim
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Chaco wrote:
Probably it was a different room, right?

Is it possible to reach more than 1 roach in that room, or am I just getting blind?

Try it yourself.

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[Last edited by Tim at 02-26-2007 11:02 PM]

Chaco
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...you're not going blind, I was stupid and put a rock in a place there wasn't supposed to be a rock, during the process of removing crumbly walls from the passage.

Let this be a lesson - if your mission is to remove something, resist the urge to add things!

Fixed hold file has been added to first post. Would you mind replaying Twice North, Once East to see if only the intended solution works now?

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-26-2007 11:05 PM]

Tim
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File: CH Level III 2N1E 2.demo (2.1 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

Chaco wrote:
Let this be a lesson - if your mission is to remove something, resist the urge to add things!

No. If your mission is to remove (or add) something, please play the room afterwards!

Fixed hold file has been added to first post. Would you mind replaying Twice North, Once East to see if only the intended solution works now?

Perhaps it's easier if you tell me what your intended solution is...

Edit: L4: Entrance could use an "End" command. + Demo attached.

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[Last edited by Tim at 02-26-2007 11:31 PM]

Chaco
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If your mission is to remove (or add) something, please play the room afterwards!

Er, yes, that's what I meant.

Your demo shows my intended solution, Tim.

Anyway, end command noted and fixed.

Basically, what I'm doing is: I'm waiting for you to play through the hold and seeing if there's anything else you find, then submitting it to Hold Administration. Since you're one Hold Administrator, this process should go a bit faster.

EDIT:

The script only ends once you go further down, near the bottom, and trigger more commentary from Beethro. I'm thinking using two NPCs should fix this, so the first ends after saying the beginning and the second ends only after saying that part.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-27-2007 12:15 AM]

Tim
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I'm now halfway L5 (didn't go back yet). Some comments here:

L4 3S: The exit leads to the wrong room. (I think. And I want a warp room or something, since I'm not going to replay L4 or L5 again. Scrap that, I'm going to use the editor to test the rest of the rooms )
L4 1N1W: I want a checkpoint at (5,18). Unintended solution: You don't need to hit the bottom orb.

L5 1N: Why the roach part? It feels like 2 seperate and unrelated puzzles in one room.
L5 1S2E: Now that was an incredibly tedious room. It took me an hour just to get them at the right places. (okay, according to my demo 25 minutes )
L5 1S1E: I think there is an unintended solution here, but since this room looks so complex I think you should keep it.
L5 2S1W: Unintended solution, since I don't have to break any walls during my first visit to the large room. No demo as I'm not that far yet (tested this one in the editor).

Chaco wrote:
Basically, what I'm doing is: I'm waiting for you to play through the hold and seeing if there's anything else you find, then submitting it to Hold Administration. Since you're one Hold Administrator, this process should go a bit faster.

Actually, no, I don't think you should think it that way.
The HAs' main job is to check whether a hold is masterable, while testers can show you unintended solutions, spelling errors and such.

The main goal I'm going through now is to see if your hold has unintended solutions, because it's not the HAs' job to check that for you. Not checking spelling errors since I don't think you can make them

Besides, you've got more HAs than testers, so I'll leave that part to the HAs. The last 2 holds I've HA'd I found so many unintended solutions and bugs that I wish people have their holds tested properly before going to the HAs.

Oh, and I'm actually really incredibly busy right now, and I really shouldn't test this hold, so I'm only doing the things that's not HA related.

-- Tim

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[Last edited by Tim at 02-28-2007 11:56 AM]

Chaco
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Oh, and I'm actually really incredibly busy right now, and I really shouldn't test this hold, so I'm only doing the things that's not HA related.

Oh, well, you should probably get to work on those things that make you busy then. This being the Internet and all, I think probably at least one other person can run through this hold.

I'll fix that staircase bug, and add the checkpoint.

I agree with you about 1S2E. The only reason I'd even included it was that there are a few considerations about junctions you really shouldn't block too soon, but it's not really enough to make a room. I'll probably just get rid of it, since the level is good enough without it.

EDIT:

I've fixed the problems mentioned and uploaded a new hold version.

The starting puzzle for 1S2E was a bit too lenient, but I found it worked well with one more golem in the bottom section, so I removed the center, tedious part and kept the room.

Also, not having found the Architect's Association seal anywhere in the hold, I added it into the level behind the Master Wall.

Unintended solutions could possibly exist in the northern section of level 3 (from 3N onwards) and the eastern part of level 4, yes. In fact, I'll probably prepare some demos for a few rooms so they're ready to serve as references to the intended solutions should somebody find a way to avoid them.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-28-2007 11:39 PM]

Citrus
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Okay, I gave in once you sent me the PM, here are my comments.

Prologue: Entrance: If you move north at the beginning, the guards will wait for you to move south before heading north. If you leave

Prologue: Once North: The SW door is one square thick, is this intended, it clashes with the other doors.

Prologue: Thrice North: If you you move as quickly as possible to the row above the stairs, the guard won't close the door until you move a square up. Just thought I'd mention it.

Second Level: 1s 2w: I still can't figure this room out.

I'm on the third level, all secrets found and beaten on floors 1 and 2. I'm going to take a break for the night and continue later.

Ezlo, over and out.



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Chaco
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Intentional, but rather inconvenient - you will notice the Entrance starts out at 5 tiles wide but it shortens to 4 tiles wide in this room. There's no smooth way to accomplish this, so I've simply done as was done in the hold, and didn't really think any more about it.

I'll see if I can improve the scripting, possibly by repositioning the entrance in The Entrance closer to the door, and doing other stuff in Thrice North.

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Citrus
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Level 4: Entrance: The west bomb test area (The one with the red floor.) has a pit instead of a wall to the south. Is this supposed to be?

Level 4: 2s 1w: You don't need to use the up/down tunnels at all.

Level 3: 4n 1w: You don't need the tunnels here at all.

Level 3: 3n 2e: You can easily kill the roach without taking a potion, or using a single tunnel. Move east until the roach is trapped on the arrow that's pointing SE. Go clockwise around the room until the roach pops of the arrow. Move west 6 times and then east once, trapping the roach on another SE pointing arrow. Move to the exit the roach should take, kill roach. I think that might be unintended.

Level 3: 3n 2w: A little help? I can't seem to solve it! EDIT: Blech, I figured it out. Hardest room so far besides that secret room on Level 2 with the mimic.

Level Five: 1s 1w: I don't get Beethro's message about "Walls that aren't walls yet." Could you explain?

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 03-01-2007 07:48 PM]

Chaco
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Level 4: The Entrance

Yep. Even when not obstructed by walls, it shows the bomb has, well, a finite range.

Level 4: 2S1W

Oh. Yes, I see what you did there - You put the roach on the diagonal arrows, then used the sideways tunnel to draw it off, then used the tunnel again so it went up and into the force arrow, yes?

I didn't want that particular room to be too difficult, so I'll probably keep that.

Level 3: 4N1W:

Oh, really? I'd like to see a demo of that.

Level 3: 3N2E:

Completely intentional. The idea of this room is that being invisible can be a disadvantage as well as an advantage.

Level 5: 1S1W:

Beethro's referring to the fact that, although it's a wall, it doesn't perform the wall's duty of keeping people from going beyond it.

Keep going, the best room is probably the level 4 secret room. Thanks for the help, Ezlo!

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-01-2007 09:03 PM]

Citrus
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File: CH Level III Potions and Orthosquares 4N1W Victory.demo (1.9 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's the demo.

How do you solve Twice and Thrice south of level 5? Those are the two I am currently stuck on. In Twice I think I know where to place the golems, but I can't get them out of the lower chamber. I have no idea where to start in thrice.

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Chaco
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Twice South -

Examine the places you're using the golems. Do you really need a wall where they are?

Thrice South -

Note the marked arrows. Now, note the unmarked arrows.

The key here is to make sure you can get to both sides of the chamber, while not blocking anything that needs to be accessible.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-01-2007 10:49 PM]

Citrus
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Those don't help too much. I'm a dunce sometimes.

Also, one more room on level 4 and I can move on to the last part of level 5. It's 1s 1e. I can get the roaches where they are supposed to be, but while I'm on the wrong side of the room. Now I can't get over to the side with the fuse. Help?


EDIT: Figure I'll give you a little more info on where I am for the two level 5 rooms.

Twice South: I know where they should go, but I can't get them past the zig-zaggy area.

Thrice South: I run down, hit the orb twice, run up to lure out the golems, and then I can't go down again without getting trapped.

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 03-01-2007 11:30 PM]

Chaco
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Level Four Once South Once East:

You might want to re-check your assumptions.



Level Five Thrice South:

You'll have to keep the golems from advancing to the point that they block you.



Twice South: Which part do you mean by "zig-zaggy"?

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Citrus
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Okay, I give up. On those three rooms can I have a demo please? I feel like I'm holding up the train here.

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 03-02-2007 01:44 AM]

Tim
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Nuntar wrote:
But I really want to get on to your later rooms, so can I have a hint on Doors and Arrows 2S1W please? Specifically, how I get the roach in the NW corner to come down -- I can get all the others?

You need to hit 3 orbs in a very specific order and timing. The order is 1-3-2 (from left to right).

Oh, and the room is NOT easy.

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[Last edited by Tim at 03-04-2007 11:08 AM]

Tim
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Nuntar wrote:
Maybe not, but I was missing something really obvious that would have given me the solution at once:

Click here to view the secret text

×the fact that *all three* orbs toggle the grid door (I'd only noticed that two do)

This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway:

Have you ever noticed that you can click on the orbs to see which doors they toggle?

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Tim
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2S2W can easily be solved from the first direction.

<---- Demo for 1N.

[Edit: The rest of the holds has many mimic puzzles, and 1N is a very simple mimic puzzle.]

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[Last edited by Tim at 03-04-2007 12:19 PM]

Tim
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Nuntar wrote:
I'm afraid I don't know how to view demos!

Okay:

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=8994
(one of the 200 posts about how to view demos. )

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