adS
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I am afraid I need a hint for UF 2N4E

adS

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Chaco
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adS wrote:
I am afraid I need a hint for UF 2N4E

adS

It's alright, this is one of the hardest rooms in the entire hold.

Now that I've fixed some unintended solutions, the only way to survive exiting the east passage is to kill the enclosed roach on its nearby spike floor, which is the same timing that kills the northwest construct on its corresponding spike floor. The roach's timing can't be adjusted, so it's the construct that has to be delayed, so a roach queen has to do it.

However, just putting it on the spikes won't be enough, since that only gives you a 10 move time limit, which is not enough time. So you'll need to get the roach queen to be significantly delayed, but nevertheless arrive there.



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adS
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Unused Annex

1N1W Nice "asymmetric" room

1W

2N Perhaps not "too long-winded". I can solve it with less than 300 moves.

1S An excellent room for optimizers.

1S1E Of course, I had destroyed all trapdoors and mud when I noticed ...

2N2E I wonder if the intended solution is to trap the construct on the L-shaped grass inside the trapdoors. This is not necessary.
Of course, the trick is how to survive the baby created at (23,10). Admittedly I was somewhat confused

adS



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adS
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Chaco wrote:

adS wrote:
I am afraid I need a hint for UF 2N4E

adS

It's alright, this is one of the hardest rooms in the entire hold.

Now that I've fixed some unintended solutions, the only way to survive exiting the east passage is to kill the enclosed roach on its nearby spike floor, which is the same timing that kills the northwest construct on its corresponding spike floor. The roach's timing can't be adjusted, so it's the construct that has to be delayed, so a roach queen has to do it.

However, just putting it on the spikes won't be enough, since that only gives you a 10 move time limit, which is not enough time. So you'll need to get the roach queen to be significantly delayed, but nevertheless arrive there.

Click here to view the secret text

×You'll have to build a construct corpse trap for the roach queen, so that it can stay in place safely until the spawn cycle, and only then move onto the spike floor. This should give you just enough time to get everything into place.

Erm,



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Chaco
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File: uf_2n4e_cage.png (722 KB)
Downloaded 522 times.
License: Public Domain

adS wrote:
Erm,

Click here to view the secret text

×I have no idea where to build a construct corpse trap and drive the queen into the trap - all this under the 30 moves pressure.

Big spoiler: The room is solvable from this state:



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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-05-2015 02:46 PM]

adS
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Big Thank you,

adS

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Nuntar
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Laboratory notes:

I don't think 2S1W is too hard for the level, but it's a large difficulty jump having it right at the beginning. I guess it doesn't matter too much as it doesn't block other rooms. Still one of my favourite rooms, just as satisfying to solve the second time.

6S:

2S1E: "Quattuorquartuple" is not a good formation. The combining form for "40" is quadraginti-, and "fourfold" is quadruple, so "44-fold" would be quadragintiquadruple (probably not attested )

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Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
6S:

Click here to view the secret text

×I used a baby from the upper mud blob to "wedge" the lower blob so it wouldn't grow an uncuttable edge. If intended, maybe add a checkpoint in the middle of the upper blob so the player doesn't have to start entirely over after reaching this realisation?

That's the intended solution, good job

2S1E: "Quattuorquartuple" is not a good formation. The combining form for "40" is quadraginti-, and "fourfold" is quadruple, so "44-fold" would be quadragintiquadruple (probably not attested )

Alright, I'll use that word instead.

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adS
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Nuntar wrote:
Laboratory notes:

I don't think 2S1W is too hard for the level, but it's a large difficulty jump having it right at the beginning. I guess it doesn't matter too much as it doesn't block other rooms. Still one of my favourite rooms, just as satisfying to solve the second time.

6S:

Click here to view the secret text

×I used a baby from the upper mud blob to "wedge" the lower blob so it wouldn't grow an uncuttable edge. If intended, maybe add a checkpoint in the middle of the upper blob so the player doesn't have to start entirely over after reaching this realisation?

2S1E: "Quattuorquartuple" is not a good formation. The combining form for "40" is quadraginti-, and "fourfold" is quadruple, so "44-fold" would be quadragintiquadruple (probably not attested )

6S: Isn't the check mark at (12,20) enough.

Isn't it quadraginta quadruple?
I was always very good at Latin - 45 years ago


adS


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Nuntar
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adS wrote: 6S: Isn't the check mark at (12,20) enough.

By the time you have access to this checkpoint, you have already entirely removed the upper mud blob, unless you managed to plan the entire solution before beginning the room.

Isn't it quadraginta quadruple?
I was always very good at Latin - 45 years ago

Forty is quadraginta as an isolated word, and in Latin, the number 44 would be written as two words, quadraginta quattuor. But when using Latin numerical prefixes in English, it's usual to use combining forms so that the whole thing can be treated as one word.

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adS
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Nuntar wrote:

adS wrote: 6S: Isn't the check mark at (12,20) enough.

By the time you have access to this checkpoint, you have already entirely removed the upper mud blob, unless you managed to plan the entire solution before beginning the room.

Ok, that makes sense.

By the way, there is no need to entirely remove the upper mud blob.

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Nuntar
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adS wrote: By the way, there is no need to entirely remove the upper mud blob.

Of course not, but it's what most players will do on their first attempt. Which is why it would be nice to have a checkpoint in the middle of removing the blob.

Factory:

2N4E is movement-order dependent in a way that may be unfair for this hold. (I found exactly the same solution without looking at yours: it fails if the NE construct moves later than the NW one.) This could be avoided, if desired, by adding a wall tile at (14,12).

4N1E is ridiculously hard compared to all other required rooms, and needs better checkpointing -- you can't hit the central and east checkpoints at all on most journeys.

Still don't know the intended solution to 3N2E. I was disappointed that the Annex version of this room only enforces the unintended solution.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 07-06-2015 01:57 AM]

LeoS
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Minor detail I noticed: Beethro repeats his "Let's get to work" line upon re-entering the 1st level entrance room. No biggie, makes him seem a little OCD

adS
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Nuntar wrote:
Factory:

4N1E is ridiculously hard compared to all other required rooms, and needs better checkpointing -- you can't hit the central and east checkpoints at all on most journeys.

Perhaps a checkpoint at (19,7) would help players to find the trick(?). It is hard to judge on once you know the solution.

adS

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Chaco
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I was pretty busy at work today and will also be busy tomorrow, so here's an update in the meantime. I'll try to get a release candidate out later this week when I have time to draw a bit more.

Main changes:

- Factory 2N4E has a bit more of a funnel now so movement order shouldn't matter

- Factory 4N1E has been moved to Annex 2N1E, has a few more checkpoints, but is unchanged.

- New room in Factory 4N1E

- Other miscellaneous scripting fixes

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adS
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I wonder if my solution for the new room is the intended one:




Check points

Sometimes the checkpoints are useless for optimizers since optimizers wild never step on them:

UG 2N; Please move (12,13) to (13,13)

UG 1E: Please add (11,8) and (27,8)

UG 4S: Plase move (19,22) to (19,21)

US 1N7E: Please move (29,23) to (29,22)

More later

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[Last edited by adS at 07-08-2015 06:04 AM]

Chaco
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adS wrote:
I wonder if my solution for the new room is the intended one:

Looks fine to me.

Sometimes the checkpoints ate useless for optimizers since optimizers wild never step on them:

With the advent of Unlimited Undo, this isn't as much of a problem anymore since optimizers can usually go out of their way to step on the checkpoint, then unlimited-undo back to the optimal path and continue going, and as long as they remember to unlimited-undo back to the optimal path each time they restart to the checkpoint it's fine.

That said, your suggestions are all good and I've implemented all of them.

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disoriented
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Oh so if you undo after touching a checkpoint, you can still restore to that checkpoint? TIL.

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adS
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More Checkpoints

UJ 1N3W: Please add checkpoints to (7,7) and (9,11).

US 3E: Please add (17,10)

US 1N5E: Perhaps remove all checkpoints and add a checkpoint on every trapdoor.

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Nuntar
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adS wrote: US 1N5E: Perhaps remove all checkpoints and add a checkpoint on every trapdoor.

Really bad idea. The checkpoints allow the player to save midway through the sections, particularly the rather tricky first and third, and before releasing the (31,13) golem in the fourth.

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adS
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Nuntar wrote:

adS wrote: US 1N5E: Perhaps remove all checkpoints and add a checkpoint on every trapdoor.

Really bad idea. The checkpoints allow the player to save midway through the sections, particularly the rather tricky first and third, and before releasing the (31,13) golem in the fourth.

Believe it or not - I would optimize the room chamber by chamber.

Anyway, perhaps leaving the existing checkpoints and adding others on the trapdoors would be nice. As I mentioned before I am talking about checkpoints for optimizers.

adS


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Chaco
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disoriented wrote:
Oh so if you undo after touching a checkpoint, you can still restore to that checkpoint? TIL.

I tried this just now and it doesn't work! Whoops!

Anyway, a new update has been posted. The main changes are just some new checkpoints added as per adS' request.

I've also added a custom portrait and some custom tiles for the Director. These consist of sprite edits of Caravel sprites, so I'd like to ask permission to distribute these art asset edits with the hold on the Holds board. Once I get it, I'll include a scroll in the Entrance pointing to it.

After that, I'll wait a few days to give testers some more chances to comment or make last-minute checkpoint suggestions, and then the hold will be ready to submit to the HAs.

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adS
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Simple question:

What exactly is a pickle cellar?

Regards,

adS

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Chaco
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adS wrote:
Simple question:

What exactly is a pickle cellar?

Regards,

adS

It's a hold made by Chaco in 2015, featuring many puzzles in a basement. A "pickle" is English-language slang for a problem or dilemma.

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Schik
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Permission officially granted (#396866) for Chaco to edit fegundo sprites and a character portrait for use in Pickle Cellar.

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[Last edited by Schik at 07-09-2015 07:34 PM]

disoriented
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And here I sat, imagining an underground cellar containing rows upon rows of marinating pickle jars.

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Chaco
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disoriented wrote:
And here I sat, imagining an underground cellar containing rows upon rows of marinating pickle jars.

That isn't exactly wrong either...

Anyway, new minor update posted, with a scroll in the entrance room pointing to Schik's post.

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adS
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disoriented wrote:
And here I sat, imagining an underground cellar containing rows upon rows of marinating pickle jars.

So did I. We know mixed pickles in Germany.
In hell the chefs are British - and the policemen are German

A German Pickel is a pimple

adS

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adS
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US 1S6E: I think somebody mentioned this already: Shouldn't there be a trapdoor at (20,17)?

Of course returning here makes the solution easier and longer.

Regards,

adS

PS

The picture of the fegundo looks - erm - not exactly excellent.

Perhaps you get the permission to use the fegundo picture form Flight of the Fegundo, which looks like an emu.

Best wishes,

adS

PPS

I really enjoyed Annex 1N2E. I couldn't believe it is solvable until ...

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Chaco
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adS wrote:
The picture of the fegundo looks - erm - not exactly excellent.

Perhaps you get the permission to use the fegundo picture form Flight of the Fegundo, which looks like an emu.

That one's a bit too scruffy for my purposes, although it's a fine drawing. But yes, I deliberately didn't spend too much time working on it; I think this is fine enough. The point was only to emphasize that yes, the Director's role is assigned correctly.

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