Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Chaco wrote: - Almost all of the supplied enemies have really high defense, meaning that, without modifiers like oremites or forced weapon usage, they pretty much have to be fought with the Everbane Blade. Of course, you don't have to use *just* those enemies. The only monsters that are practical to fight with normal weapons (such as the Hook, or the Really Big Sword if somebody installs one) would be Adders, Serpents, and the Slayer - pretty much anything with around 350 DEF or less.

I don't agree -- with my starting stats (from an ATK route) plus an RBS and Oremite Shield, enemies do the following damage:

Pi-rate 7668
Limey Eye 2130
Greater Soulless 765
Delta Roach Queen 605
Slayer 210
Delta Roach 175
Adder 165
Serpent 40
(others are not yet fightable)

Even if an RBS and Oremite Shield end up not being available, I will have the equivalent stats after taking 25 power and shield gems, which is a number that's likely to be obtainable during the level. In addition, the REP->ATK merchant is available and will give a large one-off boost; the altar is also available. So there is a similar situation to the previous level, where many monsters start off unkillable and will become killable during play of the level.

By contrast, DEF-route players are likely to be entering the level with over 500 DEF (Doom has 534), which means they can one-shot Serpents and Slayers very soon after starting the level, and Adders reasonably soon. These enemies could still be used in various ways, but it's important to be aware that they can be reduced to zero damage easily.

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Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 110
Registered: 03-05-2011
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Hey guys, I don't know if I was supposed to, but during my random Forum journey I found this thread, and noticed the hold was much further along than the version in the Architecture section. I played it through, and perhaps it would be useful to have some stats that you can work with:
Start of Level 7:
14495/598/452 with 2/13/3 keys. Didn't pick up the Pickaxe yet, as there seems to be no obvious spot to use it.
Hope this helps! It's nice to have a Hold Anonymous that isn't excruciatingly hard

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komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
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I saw this hold and tried it. I'm at the fifth level at this moment, but in 3S 1E (room with some gel babies and mud mother) something disables my weapon and there's no script .
It's a bug or I'm missing something to enable weapons there?.

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
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komachi wrote:
I saw this hold and tried it. I'm at the fifth level at this moment, but in 3S 1E (room with some gel babies and mud mother) something disables my weapon and there's no script .
It's a bug or I'm missing something to enable weapons there?.

Sounds very much like this bug that was fixed in 1.2.6.295 a few months ago. Make sure you're running the latest version.

hyperme wrote: I'll say that the deadline is the 28th of March.

psst two months soon. From what I've heard almost all the rooms made the original deadline too!

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
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Doom wrote:
Sounds very much like this bug that was fixed in 1.2.6.295 a few months ago. Make sure you're running the latest version.

Yes, that solved it, thanks.
I managed to kill the brained slayer without the bomb or speed potion.

I used the bomb from L3 to get the longsword sooner.
I have the pickaxe, the speed potion by a blue key and a bomb when I enter the 7th level.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1173
Registered: 06-23-2006
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File: RPG Anonymous 3.drh (51.1 KB)
Downloaded 54 times.
License: Public Domain

Level 7 is finished! Hurrah!

In addition to new level, Everbane Blade now consumes the REP a monster would usually give as payment for services. Nerf Nerf Nerf!

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[Last edited by hyperme at 10-20-2016 06:08 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Proposed changes to my rooms:

1N1W: For the two snakes in the northeast corner, reduce their rewards - put a single yellow key behind the serpent and a single green key behind the adder.

2N3W: In the northwest section, add an extra Lucky Seep above the existing Lucky Seep. This means that, with the Grappling Hook, you'll still only take 3 seep hits instead of 2, which is still pretty cheap, but fighting them normally will be a bit more difficult.

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hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1173
Registered: 06-23-2006
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File: RPG Anonymous 3.drh (52.6 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Nuntar and Chaco know stuff, so their changes are now added to Level 7. (Also a change was made in a room in Level 6)

Please also visit 4W to find out the villain's evil motivation and to provide your stats when there. Then a final boss can be constructed.

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Alright, made it to 4W. This is semi-optimized, starting from my stats for beating the Brained Slayer posted earlier in this thread, but I'm sure even this segment could be better optimized, and of course better optimization and using the altar less earlier would provide better stats now.

Note that I didn't even bother getting the flippers at all; since I spent the pickaxe on getting the Grappling Hook (and got free goodies in 1S), I didn't have it for 2S1W or 1S3W.

Note also that if you get your attack high enough, you can get 500 ATK with the everbane blade prior to visiting the REP boost guy, and one-shot Greater Soulless with it, which helps a bit.

Note again: Only used the L7 altar twice before it got too expensive, probably as a result of having heavily used the L6 altar back when it was the final altar.

--

HP: 18251
ATK: 964 (644 with everbane blade)
DEF: 718 (668 with everbane blade)

Keys: 22/5/4/0

GR: 2867
REP: 123792

Projected damage from 11th Architect, with Everbane Blade: 7531 (+10 ATK to save one hit for 443 damage)

notes:

got 123 ATK from rep boost guy

could spend yellow keys on +600 or +400 HP
could spend green keys on +800 HP

could spend 3 blue keys to get +8 ATK and +8 DEF

____________________________
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[Last edited by Chaco at 10-27-2016 02:36 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
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First attempt: I've also made it to 4W, but I'm in less good shape, and I'm not sure whether this is something to be addressed by rebalancing the boss, or whether it's okay for this to be a failure state and I need to go back and reoptimise.

My stats (with the Everbane Blade) are 5001 HP, 559 ATK, 639 DEF. The Architect's expected damage is 8968. If I go back to Level 6 and kill monsters that are now free (Slayers, Adders, Rock Giants), I can get the next (38k) altar upgrade, which is still not enough. I can get the pickaxe, use it to get the grappling hook, and use that to get the hand bomb (from Level 6 2S), which allows me to win the level, but it's not very satisfying

Second attempt: I replayed Level 7, this time taking only DEF at the altar (which I used, iirc, three times). Final stats (with Everbane Blade): 10659 HP, 483 ATK, 695 DEF, 6/5/1 keys. Architect does 9568 damage. So a DEF route (at least, taking DEF in Level 7) is greatly superior, since the boss's damage is about the same in both routes, but the DEF route makes it easier to get through the level using less HP.

So the boss might be okay, with the proviso that the current stats make it pretty much mandatory to use the Everbane Blade, unless you are a really good optimiser.

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50th Skywatcher

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Nuntar wrote:
So the boss might be okay, with the proviso that the current stats make it pretty much mandatory to use the Everbane Blade, unless you are a really good optimiser.

It's still basically mandatory to use the Everbane Blade because with my stats (964 ATK, 718 DEF) using the Really Big Sword, the boss does 28,296 damage to my 18,251 health (and still 393 per hit). Even with 1100 ATK and 800 DEF, the boss would do 22,708 damage, and that amount of ATK and DEF doesn't really seem like achievable stats.

____________________________
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[Last edited by Chaco at 10-27-2016 04:22 AM]

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
I can get the pickaxe, use it to get the grappling hook, and use that to get the hand bomb (from Level 6 2S), which allows me to win the level, but it's not very satisfying

It sounds like you're playing a save with the old version of the room. L6:2S had rocks added to prevent skipping most of the aumtlich on your way to the elixir. I don't see how the grappling hook is useful in the current version.

I'm trying to get to the new level in the next few days, but need to replay some of the earlier parts first.

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[Last edited by Doom at 10-27-2016 12:13 PM]

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Beat L7 with a fairly well optimized route using all the knowledge about what was coming in the later levels. Not a good indicator of what a blind playthrough would look like.

Stats before the first version of the boss

Edit: Stats before the nerfed boss in November 7 version (with further minor optimizations in L7)

Thoughts about the rooms on L7:

2N is indeed too easy. I abused this by entering the level with lower-than-usual stats with the handbomb and still could pass this room without too much trouble (even the disarm route only cost about 1.4k HP). I guess it has some interesting optimization potential since you can access the last altar earlier, but I can totally see changing it. And maybe adding more resources elsewhere to compensate so the hold doesn't become too difficult.

That's really the only out-of-the-place room. The flippers are admittedly a huge difficulty spike and one of the last items I got. I think it's still possible to get value out of them, but only if you plan around it and leave stuff in water around the hold (using pickaxe in 2S1W is pretty big too, as Chaco mentioned)

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[Last edited by Doom at 11-08-2016 01:34 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1173
Registered: 06-23-2006
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File: RPG Anonymous 3.drh (52.8 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

new version: 11th Architect has been nerfed. also you can get a scorepoint

ending will come soon?

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hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1173
Registered: 06-23-2006
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ending in architecture: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=41795&page=0#411013

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