Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3260
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

I'm curious about what other people think about this change.

I think the new, more colorful design looks kind of out of place. Nowhere near as much as the tokens but it's a bit distracting nevertheless, especially with the one-use plates.

I also find myself having trouble identifying the pressure plate types now after I had already gotten used to the older tiles. This'll likely fix itself after a while but it's just a little annoying.

Finally, I guess I can always make this myself for personal use without asking anything, but would it be legal for someone to distribute a graphical mod that changes the tiles to the earlier versions? The old graphics aren't part of the current release after all..

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

I voted for "new".

I still cannot understand which colour means which, but at least I can distinguish between them.

But unlike other elements, I still cannot immediately associate the purple coloured pressure plate to "something".

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

My original question about this is located here.

Basically, my feelings on this are as follows:

* Apart from the One-Use plates, I don't *mind* the change. It might be helpful if Toggle plates had their diamond more readily seperated out into an up and down arrow (would just need a line seperating the diamond to pull that off).

* One-Use tiles, however, I really don't like. For one, they're too bright; for another, their 'active' part takes up too much of the plate's space. They don't contrast well with Yellow Gates either. And the black border around each tile now makes connected groups of One-Use plates look a little off.

* And yes, I would definitely like the old style as an INI-available optional style available in the drod3_0.dat (the way Caravel normally distributes such media). I could actually tell the old plates apart too, so it ends up being aesthetics to me.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Erik drew the new tiles -- he wanted a metallic look for all of them. He had them shaded but without any symbols. I said, "Well, that's fine in principle, but now colorblind players won't be able to distinguish the textureless tiletypes at all. So he added the symbols on top of them as a mnemonic to indicate their function. I don't like the odd coloring, though I do like the idea of having a metallic look. I like the symbols less than the original textures -- the textures covered the entire tile, so you could see their function even if only a corner of a plate was peeking out from under tar, etc. Now, that information can be obscured so you *still* occasionally can't tell them apart. I agree with TFMurphy's assessments also.

I designed and drew the old tiles, so it's probably okay for me to release a public mod of the old tiles that people can use in 3.1. I'd probably use it myself, though as a dev I generally play without any mods installed so I can always understand what the default player will be seeing when they start up and play the game. I also have the game's default music in place and on whenever DROD is running for the same reason.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 10-15-2007 11:50 PM]

schep
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 865
Registered: 03-01-2005
IP: Logged

I don't mind the graphics one way or the other, except that I very much dislike the extra lines on the new single-use plates. So that's not going to be "fixed"?

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I thought about the different problems with the tiles, and I tried with multiple versions and feedback to fix them. The solution I came up with made sense to me and seemed a great improvement over the old tiles. I'm not going back to redo them again. Everyone has their own preferences and you can't please everyone all of the time. Also at this late point, I suspect there is a lot of bias to the old way because you're all used to it.

Mod away, my friends. Install whatever graphics you like.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: OldPlates.png (47.5 KB)
Downloaded 76 times.
License: Creative Commons
Noncommercial 3.0 Unported

ErikH2000 wrote:
Mod away, my friends. Install whatever graphics you like.

Oh. I should do a little better than that. Here are the old graphics, licensed right now under Creative Commons for non-commercial use. Please do not misinterpret this as all of the TCB tiles being released in the same license.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

---

[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 10-16-2007 01:17 AM : Added attachment.]

schep
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 865
Registered: 03-01-2005
IP: Logged

Yay, thanks Erik. (But the attachment is currently missing)

Might we please also have a license for the new tiles? Or just the new single-use tile? Or permission to distribute a mod consisting of a modification of the new single-use tile?

---

[Last edited by schep at 10-16-2007 01:19 AM : ok, not missing]

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

schep wrote:
Might we please also have a license for the new tiles? Or just the new single-use tile? Or permission to distribute a mod consisting of a modification of the new single-use tile?

I can't find the file at the moment. If someone can make a file that has just the tiles in it and e-mail it to me, I'll repost it with a CC license.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2485
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

I installed the 3.1.0.54 patch, but I don't see any changes in the graphics?

---

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 10-16-2007 02:00 AM]

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

File: OldPlates.tim (207 bytes)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

The 3.1.0.54 patch alone doesn't have the changes. You need to install the full version (which also contains a few TCB Hold changes) to get them.

Also, to use the OldTiles that Erik's posted as is, you need a .tim file as well so that DROD knows which tiles to replace with it. This one I've put together based on what was posted should do the trick.

---

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 10-16-2007 02:03 AM]

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1224
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

Same here, I got the new patch and my pressure plates are exactly the same.

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged

Because you need the full install to get the updated data files. You also need that to fix a couple of rooms. Caravel is looking into a way to patch the data files, but currently, that's not possible. If you really don't want to go through the process of exporting your data (which could suck if you have a lot of data), back up your data files, uninstall DROD, install the full download, and then copy back the data files, except for drod-3_0.dat.

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
I'm not going back to redo them again.

Does that include the "one-use tiles don't look like they're connected" part? Because that's the most jarring change of all IMHO...

I wonder - is that a problem with the tile graphic(s), or are the black borders around each tile drawn by the engine?

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

Tile graphics. Unlike the Toggle and Multi-Use plates, One-Use plates have a single tile each for active and inactive. (The other two types are like doors in that they have different tiles depending on how they're connected to other plates)

DROD has the capability to draw black edges between tiles that are different types, and this is how the One-Use tile got its black border in 3.0, where it surrounds almost any connected group of plates (there's a few exceptions where a black line won't be drawn between a plate and certain types of tile, but they're not important)

The new tile, however, has its own black line in the tile graphics, and that's creating those thick black lines (2 pixels wide, since you have the black line of one plate coupled with the line of the plate next to it) whenever multiple One-Use plates are connected.

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
IP: Logged

For me, it's a tradeoff. I agree that the new images look a little jarring, but I no longer have to right-click on every single pressure plate in order to figure out what it does. So, for me it's a net positive. I liked the old images, but they were harder to work with.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3260
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
Also at this late point, I suspect there is a lot of bias to the old way because you're all used to it.

I have to add to this that it was definitely not a deciding factor. If I'd liked the new images, I wouldn't have had anything against relearning them.

Clearly many people actually like the new tiles. Sure, no problem. I got my stylemod installed and can continue playing rooms with pressure plates properly... nothing to complain about until someone changes the room image database to use the new tiles

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3640
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Doom wrote:
nothing to complain about until someone changes the room image database to use the new tiles

That already happened - the room images for Think Outside the Box use 3.1 pressure plates.

Incidentally, that confused the bajeebus out of me until I installed the 3.1 demo. I thought Larry had invented some new object or something

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3260
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Nah, I'm fine for now because 99% of pressure plates in the image database still use old tiles

This'll probably get changed in five minutes just to make fun of me.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 10-17-2007 05:29 PM]

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5413
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

bflatjeff
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 93
Registered: 04-04-2006
IP: Logged

Um, where is this "full" 3.1 version? I don't see it on the downloads page or anything.
Due to errors in patching up to 3.1.0.54, I've lost everything and since I'm starting from scratch, I'd rather not do it twice.

BbJ

____________________________
"Stupid, stupid roach creatures!"
- Beethro Bonekin

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5413
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

bflatjeff wrote:
Um, where is this "full" 3.1 version? I don't see it on the downloads page or anything.
Due to errors in patching up to 3.1.0.54, I've lost everything and since I'm starting from scratch, I'd rather not do it twice.

Well, you never activated your TCB order. It's very possible you never got the email. Regardless, I'll PM you a link that will activate it, which will then allow you to download the full version on the downloads page.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

bflatjeff
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 93
Registered: 04-04-2006
IP: Logged

Thanks, Schik.

Now that I've had a chance to play the full 3.1 and see the new tiles, I see what all the discussion is about! I'm getting used to it, but then again I usually had to click on the three types before, as well.

I've run into a problem in Deep Uncturage, 1N4E. The force arrows on the pressure plates in the center of the room look nearly identical to plain white floor tiles! The graphics merge so that it's hard to see that those squares are either pressure plate or force arrows, to say nothing of both.

I think I'd like to install that mod. I know the .png goes in the bitmaps folder; what do I do with the .tim file, and is there anything else I'd need to do?

BbJ

____________________________
"Stupid, stupid roach creatures!"
- Beethro Bonekin

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

Place both the .png and the .tim file in the Bitmaps folder. Then, open up the drod.ini file in your favourite text editor. Look for the line that says General=GeneralTiles. After it, add the line General=OldPlates.

You can also try the variant that Mike posted to the Development board - he put the down arrow symbol that the 3.1 Multi-Use Plates use on the old 3.0 Multi-Use Plates. Just go with whichever you like best.

---

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 10-20-2007 11:08 PM]

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1138
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

Hmm...I just had an idea. Maybe there could be some sort of "colorblind" setting in the settings screen. When unchecked, the old tiles are used; when checked, the new ones are used. While graphical mods work fine, I think that this alternative would be more convenient. What do you think?

-Noah

____________________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

My stuff:

---

[Last edited by NoahT at 10-25-2007 07:28 AM]