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Elfstone
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May I present an idea for a project to you, for your comments and possible co-operation?

It seems from various posts that I have read over the last wee while that there is a perceived need for a ‘beginners training Hold’,which covered all the elements of playing the game, in a structured way. Certainly thinking back to last year when this adventure started for me, such a thing would have been very useful then. There are easy holds of course and there is the brief tutorial which comes with JtRH and the Tutorial rooms within TCB, but there is no one single hold which teaches a complete beginner how to deal with all the various elements of the game, even in their simplest form.

It is clear that some members have been trying individually to address this lack and recently some of you have posted your own tutorial holds. Each of those tutorials has its own merits, but (and please forgive me if this seems a little blunt) none, I think, is the complete article. There is also the recently released “Smitemastery 101’ ; I have not played it yet, but Jatopian said of it, ”There's still need for a comprehensive training hold, which this isn't, though it does make a good introduction.”

It seems to me that the difficulty with all of these very well intentioned attempts is that they are, if I can put it this way, all inventing their own versions of the manual on how to invent wheels. It is not co-ordinated approach and no single effort seems to cover all the areas and elements of dungeon clearing.

It was Starwed’s comment, ” But it would be nice to have a single hold which explained the different types of monster movement clearly. ^_^ Perhaps a board collaboration would be a good idea“ which galvanised me into putting my thoughts in order. I think he/she is right . I wonder if the time has come for a collaborative effort to design a complete “Training Hold”. (In fact I think that, like Master Locks, two versions would be, if not necessary, then advisable; one for children and another for “oldies”.)

When I first started chewing over the idea it was immediately obvious of course that, with TCB about to appear, it would be sensible to wait before attempting this, in order to incorporate the new game elements.

Now I am by no means the game’s best Architect and certainly I don’t have the brain for complex puzzles, but this hold would not need difficult puzzles - in fact that would defeat the purpose. What I can reasonably claim is years of experience in teaching; putting across sometimes quite complicated concepts to teenagers is how I earn my crust. I run a department and organising and combining the efforts of a variety of people with different strengths is also part of my daily job. That is how I would see my role in this - co-ordinating, combining, organising, dealing with the overall look of the finished hold. You know of course that my technical knowledge of computers is very limited, but in discussions with other members on this subject I have had kind offers of help on that side of things, should it prove necessary.

So what I am proposing is that over the next few weeks (months?) I co-ordinate a collaborative effort to design a Training Hold which will be as close as we can get it to ‘definitive’. What I seek from you is your thoughts on this as an idea and, if you approve, suggestions for what should be in the hold.

In particular, clearly at the moment we are all of us finding our way in to the elements of TCB and it would be very helpful if
:) you would take a moment to consider what you have found tricky, or difficult to understand in your first attempts at the game.
:) in the light of that, what kind of guidance would have been useful?
:) those of you who are new to DROD: would you give your opinions on what would have been helpful in terms of tutorial material when you started playing ?
:) those of you who can remember what it was like to play DROD for the first time: will you do the same - what would have helped you?
:) those of you who have already made tutorial holds: would you consider allowing me to incorporate sections of them into this new Hold?

Feel free to PM me, but I feel that public discussion of this would be very productive.

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04-03-2007 at 12:15 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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I already started to build a hold that helps the player to get from zero to smitemaster but it's really a lot of work. Up to now it has 4 levels explaining mainly orbs/roaches/checkpoints and different doors. I would like to be on the team. And we need definitly a hold, which explains everything in a detailed manner.

[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 04-03-2007 12:28 PM]
04-03-2007 at 12:26 PM
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KevG
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When I started playing DROD all we had was King Dugan's Dungeon. There really was no need for any kind of tutorial because you were supposed to learn what you needed to play the game by playing the game. It was possible to finish the game without any real understanding of how either serpents or wraithwings actually behaved. Things have changed drastically. Not only are there a lot of new objects and monsters, but we have arhitects like Larry Murk designing holds that require exact knowledge of monster movement. A tutorial hold is definitely needed.

As far as what I would want to see, each level should be a lesson. Start with basic combat and go all the way up to snake movement and movement order puzzles; if neccesary, a second hold could be used for advanced techniques. Each lesson would have two parts: a hand-holding demonstration and multiple practice rooms. The player would have the choice of being guided or just wading in and seeing how they do.

Also, and this I think is important for a tutorial hold, allow the player to choose the lessons they want to play without having to start from the beginning. I've seen numerous complaints from players about not understanding a particular type of monster. The usual response is to create a room in the editor and practice. It would be nice to have a hold already created that we can refer players to if they are having problems with a specific element.

Another suggestion would be to make the entire hold non-highscoreable. New elements are going to be released in SmS holds now. Also, people are going to be finding new uses for old elements. If the hold weren't scoreable then updating with new lessons wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not an architect, but I am a veteran player. I'd be happy to help with beta-testing and over-all design structure. As MeckMeck has found, a truly comprehensive tutorial is going to be a massive undertaking and would definitely benefit from a team approach.
04-03-2007 at 01:34 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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I like the hold being unscoreable. At last it should be a help for beginners and not a simple source of points for veteran players.
04-03-2007 at 01:41 PM
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Jacob
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As far as I'm concerned, we don't need a *comprehensive* tutorial hold. There are already several holds that start off with roach only levels, progress by requiring skills such as backswiping, add in queens etc etc. KDD being the prime, obvious example, but also holds like Simon's dungeon, Beethro's First Job, Smitemastery...
Another one of these would just be repetitive. And if something's completely comprehensive and explicit, it takes away the fun of learning and deducing these things yourself.

What we could do with (as discussed above) is a good hold that introduces the movement rules of serpents and wraithwings (everything else is self explanatory/easily deducible). But this doesn't need to be an explicit tutorial. More interesting would be levels of increasing complexity, in which the players are forced to gradually deduce how things work.

But don't let me stop you...


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04-03-2007 at 03:16 PM
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jbluestein
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What might be worthwhile would be some sort of comprehensive article detailing the beginner-level and tutorial-style holds.

Since we now have several, and more coming. It would be nice to have those singled out, in perhaps a stickied posting somewhere.

I'd even be willing to be the guy to put it together (assuming someone hasn't already done it somewhere).

Josh

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04-03-2007 at 03:20 PM
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Elfstone
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I am grateful for the mostly positive response to this so far.

If I can address one or two individual points:

MeckMeck - many thanks for your offer of help and I hope we might incorporate some of your work.

Nuntar - again my thanks (not sure that I'm worthy of such an accolade, but I'm grateful) In answer to this "I was kind of hoping I'd be allowed to finish this, as I see it as my one chance of getting a completed quality hold out there, but I don't mind sacrficing it in favour of a collaborative effort." please don't see this as sacrificing your work and I'm sure you will end up with more than one hold "out there". You can contribute as much or as little of you architecture as you want - or none at all. Having people on board just to test things, offer opinions and point me in the right direction will also be extremely useful.

KevG - some wise words in your post! - that's exactly what I need. I'll chew over what you've said.

Jacob - I value your opinion, but I wonder if you have maybe misconstrued what this Training Hold will be? I am using that term "Training" as different from "Tutorial". "And if something's completely comprehensive and explicit, it takes away the fun of learning and deducing these things yourself." I agree with that statement entirely and it is not my intention that this hold will do that. The best of teaching is very often creating the right circumstances for pupils to learn for themselves. I hope to construct a hold which is, in educational parlance, "differentiated". There will be straightforward 'lessons' for complete beginners, but opportunities for players to skip those if they wish. There will be rooms where everything is explained and demonstrated but also rooms where a newby can try out his developing skills, without the feeling of someone 'holding his hand'. I hope to make the hold interesting in itself, to draw the player in, not just a series of exercises to be ticked off.

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04-03-2007 at 06:02 PM
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Ezlo
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I'd love to help, I was thinking of making one myself, but I love community projects.

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04-03-2007 at 06:11 PM
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Elfstone
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Ezlo wrote:
I'd love to help, I was thinking of making one myself, but I love community projects.

Thankyou! :)

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04-03-2007 at 06:12 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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It seems were having already found a handful of people willing to do a Training Hold. It's really important to have a lot of architects on this project because it will give us the chance to make one complete, sound and good training hold. It won't make a lot of sense to have 3 average semi-complete somewhat comprehensive holds when we can have 1 good one.

Now some questions are turning up. How can we work togehter? There are quite a few models of cooperation we could use, ranging from the "pass the hold" model to simultaneous engineering. First of all, I would suggest that we use a private Beta-Board. This hold will be a big project and we will need seperate threads for suggestions,bugs,announcements,discussion,whatever if we don't want to end up in a mess of posts. Moreover it would be a good thing to split the work up in categories like "Roach+Queen Puzzles", "Tar/Mud Puzzles", "General Design", "Story(?)". Then every architect can choose a categories on which he/she will focus. Of course, that dosen't mean that architects can't influence other architects. Furthermore, I think we need to have a project leader and a discussion coordinator. Finally, I want to say that not polls but discussions should decide important questions.

04-03-2007 at 06:28 PM
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Tahnan
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I'd like to take a moment to say that the cut-scene technique in the training areas of TCB is a brilliant way to illustrate things. It removes the "um let me kind of tell you what happens and then you can move around and hope for the best" element; showing what happens is so much better.
04-03-2007 at 07:51 PM
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BeefontheBone
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Tahnan wrote:
I'd like to take a moment to say that the cut-scene technique in the training areas of TCB is a brilliant way to illustrate things. It removes the "um let me kind of tell you what happens and then you can move around and hope for the best" element; showing what happens is so much better.

Agreed. Having a demonstration of backswiping rather than KDD's room in which you have to first work out that you need to put 2 mimics elsehwere before deducing that it's possible to kill the roaches coming from both sides on your own, then work out HOW that is done struck me as far more useful, and much less time-consuming and frustrating.

I'm no architect (and have yet to finish playing any of the official holds, in point of fact), but this strikes me as something I'd be more than happy to help beta test, contribute to text/story etc. on.

As an example of what we're trying to avoid, I noticed last night that TCB didn't really explain sister gates to the player before a red one was used in a puzzle (albeit simply as a timing element to cut off soem briars).

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04-03-2007 at 08:14 PM
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KevG
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Furthermore, I think we need to have a project leader and a discussion coordinator. Finally, I want to say that not polls but discussions should decide important questions.
The first thing needed is a clear-cut mission statement so everyone is on the same page. Elfstone has done a good job explaining what she intends the hold to be, but writing up a formal project description will be extremely helpful.

There's no real need for polls when a group of people working together is small enough that everyone can be asked their opinion. The larger question is whether it should be a democracy or a benevolent dictatorship. I would say that the project has the best chance of success if Elfstone has final say over everything.

BeefontheBone wrote:
Agreed. Having a demonstration of backswiping rather than KDD's room in which you have to first work out that you need to put 2 mimics elsehwere before deducing that it's possible to kill the roaches coming from both sides on your own, then work out HOW that is done struck me as far more useful, and much less time-consuming and frustrating.
And then there's people like me. I've hated the "sit there and watch someone else do it." technique in every game I've seen it in; I much prefer the way KDD did it. That's why I really like the idea of a hold that gives the player a choice.


04-03-2007 at 08:43 PM
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Tahnan
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KevG wrote:
BeefontheBone wrote:
Agreed. Having a demonstration of backswiping rather than KDD's room in which you have to first work out that you need to put 2 mimics elsehwere before deducing that it's possible to kill the roaches coming from both sides on your own, then work out HOW that is done struck me as far more useful, and much less time-consuming and frustrating.
And then there's people like me. I've hated the "sit there and watch someone else do it." technique in every game I've seen it in; I much prefer the way KDD did it. That's why I really like the idea of a hold that gives the player a choice.
Wow, huh. I genuinely thought that there wouldn't be anyone who didn't like the cut-scene demonstrations.

Well, in a tutorial hold, it's certainly easy enough to put the cutscene-demos into side rooms that you can walk into if you want to see the things in action, and ignore if you don't.
04-03-2007 at 09:24 PM
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BeefontheBone
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You would immediately get a chance to try it out, but it's not too difficult to grant the choice - simply split the hold in two, one with demonstrations and one with scrolls, and copy the rooms (before adding the scripting I guess), et voila! The only problem would be if you wanted to effectively turn it on partway through - you'd end up sitting through the demonstrations of the stuff you worked out already. Of course, if nothing is marked as required, passagesat the bottom of the rooms could let you cross from one side ot the other, if a boring "keep going North" structure isn't much of an issue (could mix it up on different levels and/or with some warps I guess).

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[Last edited by BeefontheBone at 04-03-2007 09:26 PM]
04-03-2007 at 09:26 PM
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Briareos
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Waitwaitwait - cutscenes are triggered, like so many other things, via scripts. So you could make a tile you have to step on to trigger the cutscene - just don't step on it to skip it.

np: Death Cab For Cutie - State Street Residential (You Can Play These Songs With Chords)

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04-03-2007 at 09:29 PM
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BeefontheBone
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Gah, good point. Told you I wasn't an architect :P

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04-03-2007 at 09:30 PM
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KevG
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Tahnan wrote:
Wow, huh. I genuinely thought that there wouldn't be anyone who didn't like the cut-scene demonstrations.
What can I say, I like playing games not watching them. I'm fully aware I'm in the minority on this issue. It's just that I've had an irrational loathing of cut-scenes ever since Xenogears.

Well, in a tutorial hold, it's certainly easy enough to put the cutscene-demos into side rooms that you can walk into if you want to see the things in action, and ignore if you don't.
Yeah, there are lots of ways to give players a choice. I personally like Briareos's idea of using trigger plates for the cut-scenes.
04-03-2007 at 11:03 PM
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noma
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I happily volunteer to be a tester. I think I'm still new enough to the game to remember what it's like to be a total newbie and approach the testing with that frame of mind.
04-04-2007 at 01:03 AM
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Syntax
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I'd love to be a tester too. I personally love simple rooms and am playing every tutorial in TCB as I go through it. I know a few tricks which could also add to the learning experience though I must admit KDD, JtRH and TCB tackle tricky situations with new elements extremely well. I wouldn't put my name down as architect as it would probably result in pinpoint accuracy solutions which is not what this hold is about. I remember solidly what it was like to first play DROD and have had the rare opportunity of watching someone else go through the same steps (VodkaAndCoke).
04-04-2007 at 01:20 AM
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zombieP
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A little cold water on this idea. If it's not in the demo or the full version of the game very few people that are true newbies will play it. Hell, it took me a year to figure out I could download user made holds without a Caravelnet membership. Newbies that are frustrated will simply not go through the trouble. They just won't play. I think a better use of your time is lobbying the devs for a more comprehensive tutorial. More newbies that stick with the game = more cash for the devs = a higher quality sequel = more fun for all of us. How many games have we all downloaded and played a few minutes before we gave up and stopped playing? Of those, how many of us went through the trouble of downloading user made tutorials? Just my 2 cents.
04-04-2007 at 06:18 AM
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gamer_extreme_101
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Well, I still have a quarter of a JtRH tutorial that I'm slowly working on and intend to finish for TCB. I'd be willing to collaborate with anyone if they need, but mine is going to be on the very deep side of instruction.

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04-04-2007 at 06:26 AM
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TripleM
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zombieP wrote:
A little cold water on this idea. If it's not in the demo or the full version of the game very few people that are true newbies will play it. Hell, it took me a year to figure out I could download user made holds without a Caravelnet membership. Newbies that are frustrated will simply not go through the trouble. They just won't play. I think a better use of your time is lobbying the devs for a more comprehensive tutorial. More newbies that stick with the game = more cash for the devs = a higher quality sequel = more fun for all of us. How many games have we all downloaded and played a few minutes before we gave up and stopped playing? Of those, how many of us went through the trouble of downloading user made tutorials? Just my 2 cents.
Thats a good point, but can I point out that the 'devs' are very connected to this forum. Half of the people who made the levels were probably just plain old forum-ites a while ago. So if this hold turned out to be the perfect tutorial, then I'm sure it would really be no hassle to have it packaged in with the official game, if it was thought worthwhile.

(So basically I'm saying theres no point in saying 'ask the devs to do it', when this will work just the same, but faster and probably even better.)

[Last edited by TripleM at 04-04-2007 06:31 AM]
04-04-2007 at 06:30 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Maybe it could be put into the download section amoung the demos and patches. There, a lot of people will see and download it. I don't want to appear pushy, but I would suggest to start the project quite soon. It would also be a good idea if everybody uploads his halfdone tutorial so we can all see what we have already.

[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 04-04-2007 08:40 AM]
04-04-2007 at 08:34 AM
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Elfstone
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My thanks again to all of you who have replied here. :)

Noma and Syntax - your offer is gratefuly received - of course I will need testers as well as architects. To have both experience and a relative newcomer on board is very good.

KevG - thanks for your support. " but writing up a formal project description will be extremely helpful." Goodness me, you make it sound as though I'm applying for a job!! "The larger question is whether it should be a democracy or a benevolent dictatorship." Ah, that was never really a question in my mind. ;)

gamer - thanks for repeating your offer; I'm hoping Rabscuttle will too.

zombie - you have made very valid points, but I'm hoping to make a Hold that will be worthy of being flagged up to newbies somehow - maybe a link on the H&S page?

MeckMeck - your enthusiasm is touching! " I would suggest to start the project quite soon" - this is it starting! ;)

I feel that I have enough support (which delights me) to proceed with this. I will PM all those who have offered help, today (BST) or tomorrow at the latest (I'm on holiday at the moment which eases pressure on time for me). MeckMeck's sense of urgency notwithstanding, I don't want to botch this, or to "run out of steam", by rushing things too much. I much prefer to work at a steady pace and all of you who have volunteered will have other demands on your time too.

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04-04-2007 at 10:44 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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I'm sorry. I didn't want to suggest to rush things or to make a hurry. I just want to bring things forward, because I really like the project idea. Sry if I sounded pushy.
04-04-2007 at 10:58 AM
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silver
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note the tutorial in TCB is pretty good by itself. much better than the JtRH tutorial (tutorial option on play menu)


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04-04-2007 at 11:20 AM
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Jason
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It is the same as the JtRH one, except it has some basic JtRH monster and element training. But yeah, much better.

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04-04-2007 at 11:23 AM
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Birkoff
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I Would like to help all that I can, sadly that'll only have to be as a tester, since that's about what my mind is capable of :toohard

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Ralph Waldo Emerson
04-04-2007 at 02:04 PM
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Elfstone
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Registered: 03-01-2006
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icon Re: Training Hold (0)  
MeckMeck GRE wrote:
I'm sorry. I didn't want to suggest to rush things or to make a hurry. I just want to bring things forward, because I really like the project idea. Sry if I sounded pushy.

Oh no apology needed! :) I'll be PMing you, later today I hope.

Birkoff - many thanks for your offer of help :thumbsup I'll be in touch.

____________________________
Winner of: Novice Architect Excellence 2006.
FAPCA - Technical Design Excellence in Layout and Aesthetics

04-04-2007 at 02:44 PM
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