baba44713
Level: Roachling
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Registered: 11-18-2006
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Hi guys.

First let me introduce myself. I'm quite a Drod newbie, I just recently found out about it at Jayis games site. I have yet to try out Drod:JtTRH since I downloaded Architects Edition a week ago or so and am having fun with it since. I find the game quite enjoyable (I am currently at level 18) and I guess once I finish it I'll pull out some cash and see what's the big deal about the Rooted Hold.

But let me get to the point. I didn't percieve Drod to be TOO hard (yet), but I am kind of a logic puzzle freak and am used to lateral thinking. I can see it being quite punishing to quite a few people though. Now it's not necessarily a bad thing, difficult computer games are quite a rarity nowadays, but isn't Drod turning away some people with its difficulty?

Should there perhaps be some more "introductory" elements (perhaps in the form of progressively unlockable tutorial in the main menu) throw in so people would be less inclined to walk away from a punishing level?

schep
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Hmm. For one thing, DROD just isn't for everybody. It fits this niche for those of us who love being forced to think laterally.

And really, the main official holds -- King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold -- do a very good job of introducing new game elements gradually and giving you some time to get used to how each works before throwing them into the really tricky puzzles. That, and each has a good overall learning curve. If anybody tried starting to play DROD on level 10 of either, they'd most likely pull out a bit of hair and delete the thing in a day.

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Well, several people have attempted to make beginner's holds. There is even one coming out as a Smitemaster's Selection (essentially an official Caravel hold with higher production values and voice acting) soon as well.

The issue has certainly been brought up in the past and is a concern to Caravel when developing sequels in terms of attracting new customers. Sometimes there is the (perhaps elitist) attitude that those who have too much trouble early on in KDD will not enjoy all that DROD has to offer them anyway (and perhaps will never be able to learn how to play well enough). Others want to bring in as many new players as possible and thus the small amount of easy holds.

In any case, we have been refining the tutorial elements of the sequels...JtRH has a short tutorial, TCB will continue the tradition, and the aforementioned Smitemaster's Selection could perhaps be used to help draw new players in.

Game on,

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Briareos
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schep wrote:
And really, the main official holds -- King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold -- do a very good job of introducing new game elements gradually and giving you some time to get used to how each works before throwing them into the really tricky puzzles.

I concur.

Also, if the main hold(s) start(s) getting too hard there's always the option of downloading one of the oodles of user-made holds, quite some of which are easier than KDD or JtRH, then coming back to those when you feel ready...

So it's not as if you've been tricked out of 20 USD *unless* you thought the game was gonna hold your hand from the beginning to the very end...

np: Move D - Beyond The Machine (Kunststoff)

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baba44713
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 11-18-2006
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Well noone talked about *tricking*. Actually I think that Drod has more to offer for those 20$ then a majority games on todays market.

I was just quite amazed how difficult the game got quite fast. Todays games usually hold your hand and guide you being extra careful you don't hurt yourself accidentally on the way. Drod kicks you in the nuts and then hammers you fiercely whle you're down. And that's good, because it is a great feeling when you pick yourself up from the floor and give a few punches back (until the next room, when Drod usually gets a baseball bat and iron boots, but let's leave the brawling metaphor for now).

I am just pointing out that a collection of begginers holds wrapped up in the game on separate main menu option or something could attract new people. Also, perhaps a mod of the game where YOU move , and then MONSTERS move could help, since I've found that quite a few people I showed Drod to have been dumbfounded by the game's mechanics ("the roach was right below you, and your sword was pointing to the right, how is it now that the roach is dead and not you? *sigh*").

But as I said, I'd rather have nice little difficult game like this than another of those puzzle games that mostly try not to accidentally offend you with occasional semi-difficult bit in their levels.

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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Good to see a new player getting involved in the forums

Congratulations on stumbling across the gem that is DROD. As schep points out, DROD is a niche game and as such, and with the "underground" tradition, is a very difficult game (yet totally fair). Personally, I like this fact. There are plenty of easy games out there, so it's nice to actually feel challenged. I don't think DROD needs to appeal to everyone... but those it does attract will have hours of enjoyment.

Welcome

Small note: the current movement order is Beethro moves first, *then* monsters. Maybe you meant the other way round, but can't see that working...

NiroZ
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Heh, well in reference to having a mode where the monsters move before you, I tried suggesting it, but I found it slightly amusing that the people here didn't quite see that aspect of it.

As for it having a harder difficulty curve than most games, I guess that's the advantage of appealing to a very specific niece market. Then again, there are plenty of games that still 'kicks you in the nuts', like Far Cry or Empire Earth 2, not to mention the plethora of highly complex multiplayer games/mods.

that said, there are several different holds that focus on teaching new people DROD, and a very small few which are focused people looking for easy holds, if you want I can list most of them.

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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schep wrote:
If anybody tried starting to play DROD on level 8 of either, they'd most likely pull out a bit of hair and delete the thing in a day.

Fixed.

More on topic, Erik said at one point that he wanted DROD to have the standard of difficult gameplay that it currently does. I think it's in Press Clippings somewhere, but I could be totally wrong. It's his take on why DROD can never be a casual game--because it's not for the casual gamer. The casual gamer can't take the kick to the nuts that you're talking about. They're more along the lines of "Sword! That's probably pointy! Stab things! Level one's eas...wait a minute...what's this feeling...thinking? THINKING?! I PLAY MY GAMES TO ESCAPE THINKING!!!RAR!!!" Maybe not those exact words.

Anyway, the point is that the difficulty is somewhat intentional. With practice though, anybody can move into the top ranks. I remember when I was a wee delver, and didn't know things like backswiping (and I only had limited demos to use for hints and solutions). So while we're very kind in helping you out in your fight (to continue the analogy), we still like to see players fight back on their own.

And to the forum! You'll love it here.

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jbluestein
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NiroZ wrote:
Heh, well in reference to having a mode where the monsters move before you, I tried suggesting it, but I found it slightly amusing that the people here didn't quite see that aspect of it.

I wonder if baba44713 was referring to some sort of two-step process whereby Beethro moves (and you see what he does), then the monsters move (you see what they do). That's how it currently works, sort of, except that the time between Beethro's move and the monsters' move is very short.

But maybe that's not what he meant.

Josh

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Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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zex20913 wrote:
With practice though, anybody can move into the top ranks.

Well... only 10 can make it into the top ranks

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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Syntax wrote:

zex20913 wrote:
With practice though, anybody can move into the top ranks.

Well... only 10 can make it into the top ranks

Then why have average points/rank?

I consider agaricus5 to be a top rank player, even though he doesn't have the sort of number of scores that we have. There are others too, he's just the first one who leapt to my mind.

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Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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It was just a passing joke.

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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Muh bad. Sometimes my internetsarcasmdar fails me.

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baba44713
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 11-18-2006
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I wonder if baba44713 was referring to some sort of two-step process whereby Beethro moves (and you see what he does), then the monsters move (you see what they do).

Yes, that's what I meant.

To a new player, this dynamic is not obvious. At first it looks as though everybody moves at the same time, but later as you study it some more you see that Beethro has sort of an upper-hand. But as I showed the game to my friends, I saw that this mechanic isn't very clear to a newcomer. If you throw in other factors (like striking an orb while monsters is getting on the door tile) things can get even more perplexing to the new guy on the block.

So I thought it could be helpful if the game had some sort of an option where Beethro moves, and THEN the monsters move. Not a change in gameplay per se, but rather a small tweak in the interface. To veterans this would of course be pointless and exhausting, but I thing newcomers would appreciate it. Once it "clicks", you turn the option off and enjoy the game the old-fashioned way.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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Hmm--I thought I recalled a "speed" setting: that is, the ability to speed up or slow down the steps in a turn, or how quickly the game updates. I might be wrong (and that might've been something in AE, or Webfoot...?); in which case, it would be perhaps a nice thing to add.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Yeah, there should be a complete DROD tutorial. I know gamer_extreme_101 was working on one, but he hasn't updated it in a while. If the need goes unfilled for a while after TCB, such a tutorial might even end up being my first hold.

Tahnan wrote:
Hmm--I thought I recalled a "speed" setting: that is, the ability to speed up or slow down the steps in a turn, or how quickly the game updates. I might be wrong (and that might've been something in AE, or Webfoot...?); in which case, it would be perhaps a nice thing to add.

You're probably thinking either of the repeat rate, or "speed" mode in Webfoot. Neither does what you think. And I think this feature request is what you want.

baba44713 wrote:
Drod kicks you in the nuts and then hammers you fiercely whle you're down. And that's good, because it is a great feeling when you pick yourself up from the floor and give a few punches back (until the next room, when Drod usually gets a baseball bat and iron boots, but let's leave the brawling metaphor for now).

I hope you aren't a reviewer. Or maybe I don't. Anyway, I'm amused.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 11-19-2006 10:20 PM]

jemann
Level: Master Delver

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baba44713 wrote:So I thought it could be helpful if the game had some sort of an option where Beethro moves, and THEN the monsters move.

I find that watching recorded demos is useful in this respect - you can at least see the monsters move from one position to the next, not just 'jump' between them. It makes horde management a little more obvious as well. If there was a mode to play the game this way it might help newcomers...

Mattcrampy
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I certainly can't see a reason why Beethro can't move, then have a slight pause, then the monsters move. At least for the first, say, 50 rooms a player profile plays. If the delay time is (0.5-(rooms/200)) seconds until the first hundred rooms, that means that the first 30 or so rooms Beethro plays there's a sizable pause. The pause starts slowly disappearing, easing players into the way things are currently.

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Niccus
Level: Smiter
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On that note, how many rooms will we have to go through until the first roach?

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

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More importantly, can we build up to the roach hordes that fill up the screen? Cause that'd be super.

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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You mean, JtRH level 22 3N is going to be in level 12 or so? Because that only takes up about half the screen.

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Mattcrampy
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No, I mean can the fourth room with roaches in it not be a room with 40 roaches in it, like with JtRH.

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