Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged
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Re: unlimited undo (+2)
I'm assuming that you didn't read the whole thread, as people rarely do when they enter a conversation late (as in 2 years late), so here are the people who have summed up why UU is a bad idea best (in my opinion):
mrimer wrote:
Click here to view the secret text ×So far, I see the core play issues potentially affected, are as follows:
- When trying to beat a room for the first time: As people who have used it attest, UU often serves as a crutch, saving time by avoiding thinking while blindly plowing forward -- leading to unfun focus on undesirable trial and error play when rooms are designed to support this style of play (consider those rooms where you are forced to wrangle the correct solution from a tedious and unintuitive puzzle). In this case, I would encourage better puzzle/room design. UU is another solution, but in my mind the next point takes precedence to fixing bad puzzles that way.
- For optimising rooms after completing a hold for the sake of higher scores: In this case, this isn't just about achieving good scores, but rather at beating other people's already good scores. Adding quicker ways to achieve higher scores seems like an arms race lacking any contribution to more meaningful play. I don't see a reason to add a more powerful way to get high scores.
Take a contrasting game like N with online high scores. There's no undo there (e.g. time rewinding, a la Prince of Persia) for the sake of getting high scores, as well there shouldn't be. "But wait!" you say. "That's an action game, and this is about puzzle solving and planning out what to do ahead of time, not properly using twitch reflexes." Quite right, and I think that futhers the reason not to add UU for the sake of getting higher scores in a game like DROD.
I don't see how UU would resolve these difficult issues.
Mattcrampy wrote:
Click here to view the secret text ×Grab a hold that's marked 'anyone edit', then play it in the editor. The editor allows unlimited undo.
Those of us who have played DROD with unlimited undo feel that it takes away a good deal of the tension of the game. Sure, getting highscores would be easier, and you'd be able to jump from unsuccessful highscore effort to unsuccessful highscore effort a lot quicker, but do you honestly think that's the only place where you'd use it?
Highscores wouldn't be nearly as interesting for the common man to get, because the tension of whether a particular approach could work, even though it's far riskier, would disappear. After undoing over and over again, you'd discover eventually that it's achieveable or it's impossible. That doesn't take cleverness, that merely takes persistance. And to beat that highscore, someone has to match your persistance, and then go further.
I don't think persistance is a particularly desirable metric for success in any game. Certainly, you need a certain amount of persistance, but it's cleverness that ultimately decides how much persistance one will need.
Abbyzzmal wrote:
Click here to view the secret text ×I think most of us have played with unlimited undo in the editor, at least a little, and I think most of us are somewhat sympathetic to your view. I don't think anyone has been especially rude or closed-minded here; I think, mainly, most of us who routinely post on the forum have been around a long time, and have seen the various iterations of the game that unites us, and we only want to see changed what is completely beneficial to be changed.
There was a debate with checkpoints, early on in Caravel's life, that might be compared to ours here. There was the debate about the single undo for years leading up to 2.0. Those features were added, because it was decided (I assume) that the player deserves a little bit of a handicap, and that the prevention of extreme tedium is a good thing.
However, there are good things about tedium! Tedium is a foundation for a wide variety of video games. The entire idea of a learning curve is based in tedium. It adds tension and drama, it frustrates and ultimately satisfies. It is the build before the payoff, the setup before the punchline, the slow incline before the roller coaster sets off down the chute. For optimizing rooms, unlimited undo would be a wonderful thing, but for suspense, for the continuing fear of being another corpse in these Deadly Rooms of Death, our current system, I think, is superior. I am with Crampy on this.
But as you said, the whole debate is meaningless. I understand your disappointment, as the minimization of the rooms is fundamental to the game for you, and you've presented your argument well and politely. But DROD straddles a line between action and puzzle, and while unlimited undo might improve the puzzle component, the fear of many of us is that it will be at a sacrifice to the action. Which, as I understand it, is the genre classification Erik has been giving to the game.
I think these are pretty good points. After you read them, I think that you'll have a better idea of why you shouldn't be asking for it. I have yet to finish reading through the thread again, so I might add a few more if I find them.
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