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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : unlimited undo
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larrymurk
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Yes, I wasn't excited by the idea of unlimited undo being allowed only after completing a room either so this announcement really doesn't affect me either.

Maybe some day, somehow unlimited undo will at least appear for us non-highscorers (in an authorized way of course)...
11-18-2006 at 07:00 PM
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Jatopian
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Schik wrote:
Well, all that was ever *in* TCB was unlimited undo after you've already finished the hold. So this change won't affect you.
Oh yeah. I suppose I would've needed it anyway. Well, if I figure out a way to get UU outside of the editor, I'll tell you so you can invalidate my scoring. I probably won't even find one.
I really resent these high-score grubbers detracting from my potential enjoyment of the game. It's not a tree search when I'm beta-testing holds in the editor, and it won't be in the game proper.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 11-18-2006 07:08 PM]
11-18-2006 at 07:07 PM
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Schik
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Jatopian wrote:
I really resent these high-score grubbers detracting from my potential enjoyment of the game.
In defense of these high-score grubbers.... the only reason UU was considered and temporarily included was for the high-score grubbers. Not for the people who want to use UU in their first trip through a hold. So if you're mad at anyone, I guess it should be Caravel for making design decisions for their game that you don't like.

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11-18-2006 at 07:27 PM
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agaricus5
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Schik wrote:
Jatopian wrote:
I really resent these high-score grubbers detracting from my potential enjoyment of the game.
In defense of these high-score grubbers.... the only reason UU was considered and temporarily included was for the high-score grubbers. Not for the people who want to use UU in their first trip through a hold. So if you're mad at anyone, I guess it should be Caravel for making design decisions for their game that you don't like.
I'd just like to add here that I am quite disappointed with the decision to remove unlimited undo for mastered holds, but as I've already said everything that I need to say in this topic, I'm not going to push the debate any further.

I suppose I'd better stop caring about optimising and #1s, or I'll never finish any holds at this rate (skill = time, which I lack). Most of the columns in the highscores pages, especially the efficiency column and #1 page, are going to bug me for ever now.

As for the name-calling, I think a deliberate typo will do, Shick.

*Throws a bunch of 15th place demos at Shick*

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 11-18-2006 11:04 PM]
11-18-2006 at 11:03 PM
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Syntax
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Jatopian wrote:
*hopes for binary mods*
Alongside the raygun mod? Seriously... let's all stick to the game as intended.
11-19-2006 at 11:44 AM
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Briareos
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Syntax wrote:
Jatopian wrote:
*hopes for binary mods*
Alongside the raygun mod?
Well, I can see the use of a raygun, but what's Beethro to do with binaries?

Can't think of any PUZZLE POTENTIAL there, personally... unless you give Beethro a PDA or somesuch... ;)

np: Underworld - Bruce Lee (The Micronauts Remix) (Bruce Lee)


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11-19-2006 at 12:06 PM
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Chaco
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Well, it'd make it a lot easier for him to use Goolean logic. ;)

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11-19-2006 at 07:19 PM
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Briareos
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Chaco wrote:
Well, it'd make it a lot easier for him to use Goolean logic. ;)
Is that what Google is using for their search terms?

Or did you mean Boolean? ;)

np: Underworld - Pearl's Girl (Underworld 1992-2002 (Disc 2))

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[Last edited by Briareos at 11-19-2006 08:10 PM]
11-19-2006 at 08:10 PM
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Doom
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Briareos wrote:
Chaco wrote:
Well, it'd make it a lot easier for him to use Goolean logic. ;)
Or did you mean Boolean? ;)
No, I'm fairly sure that Chaco meant Goolean. :yes
11-19-2006 at 08:28 PM
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Chaco
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I take it you haven't played Professor Goole's Goolean Dungeon then.

EDIT:

Beaten by Doom I see.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-19-2006 08:43 PM]
11-19-2006 at 08:42 PM
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Briareos
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Doom wrote:
No, I'm fairly sure that Chaco meant Goolean. :yes
Yeah, well - that explains it; I don't read that thread... ;)

np: Underworld - The Misterons Mix (RiverRun Project)

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11-19-2006 at 09:09 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I can see unlimited undo resulting in holds where you needed unlimited undo to get the high score, which could possibly result in rooms that were almost impossible in the first place. There is a point where one has to say that instead of bypassing tedium through new features, one will simply spend their time on other rooms more interesting to optimise.

In any case, I understand that Caravel wasn't exactly married to the feature so its utility may be somewhat overrated.

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11-20-2006 at 01:10 AM
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eytanz
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Mattcrampy wrote:
In any case, I understand that Caravel wasn't exactly married to the feature so its utility may be somewhat overrated.

Huh?

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11-20-2006 at 01:15 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Well, I asked Schik about it, and he suggested that it was a decision they didn't have much trouble making. If there was in fact heated debate and Schik didn't tell me about it, well then I'm working off incorrect information. But I did ask! I'm not just making stuff up this time!

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11-20-2006 at 01:27 AM
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eytanz
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No, that's not what I'm puzzled by. I just don't understand what you meant by "its utility may be somewhat overrated".

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11-20-2006 at 02:43 AM
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Maurog
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Probably that it's not a God mode as some people apparently think. Remember that tyrant guy from "The Chronicles of Riddick"? Well, he had unlimited undo, but did it help him?
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11-20-2006 at 07:01 AM
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NiroZ
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I don't think Caravel are as concerned with it being a 'God mode' as much as it setting a precedent, or making the highscores feel 'automated' or overly simplified.
Then there is the additional problem of it encouraging architect laziness(eg, 'Ah, it doesn't matter, they have unlimited undo').
11-20-2006 at 07:16 AM
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Mattcrampy
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eytanz wrote:
No, that's not what I'm puzzled by. I just don't understand what you meant by "its utility may be somewhat overrated".

I meant that might not be as useful as people think, considering it wasn't seen as something to put in. I can only speculate, but often, it's the approach that makes a highscore, and it's a matter of debate whether unlimited undo would make finding a new approach, rather than making your existing one work, any easier. That might not be true, but there's certainly reasons why it wasn't

But anyways, I guess the arguments have been made all before, so I'm not going to dredge them up again.

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11-20-2006 at 09:18 AM
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NavySeal
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Can someone please give me DROD TCB & JtRH versions compiled for Windows XP with "unlimited undo" feature enabled!
I think a puzzle game must have unlimited undos otherwise it almost becomes a skill/memory game which I don't enjoy much.
05-06-2010 at 08:01 AM
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12th Archivist
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Skill? Aye, DROD is more of a game of skill than it is a game of trial and error. Unless, of course, I misinterpreted what you mean by 'skill'.

By the way, welcome to the forums NavySeal! :)

EDIT: I noticed this was not your first post before I began to write my own post. However, I didn't notice that you're copying your post and pasting in the relevant threads. Do remember that this forum operates by user patience. Three identical posts of yours in three different areas won't necessarily have a response any faster than one post.

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 05-06-2010 01:41 PM]
05-06-2010 at 01:30 PM
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Tahnan
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NavySeal:

There are ways to compile DROD so that it has unlimited undo; I think they're discussed elsewhere in the forum. But at the risk of being somewhat less than 100% helpful to a newcomer (to say nothing of the risk of irritating a Navy seal!), I'm going to refrain from helping you find them. Believe me, there are times I've wanted unlimited undo. I'll even admit that I've occasionally recreated rooms in the editor, which does have UU, so that I could try repeated variations until I hit on the right one.

All the same, DROD puzzles are designed knowing that the solver doesn't have UU, which means that they're generally created in such a way that UU wouldn't be a helpful tool. (Among other things, the creators typically put checkpoints in useful places, so that you don't have to recreate your entire list of moves from memory if you make a mistake.) Have you given the game a shot without it? How far have you gotten; where have you gotten stuck; have you checked the Hints & Solutions board?
05-06-2010 at 02:55 PM
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NavySeal
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There are turn based strategies like Chess or Risk and in these games after you move, the opponent has a variety of moves to choose from and you do not know what move he will make. Undoing your move after the opponent has moved is unfair because now you have discovered your opponent's strategy. But in DROD the monsters' moves are perfectly determinable from the current state of the game and your move and thus it is more like a logic puzzle type of game and that's why I would like to play it.

Also, hints and solutions defeat the purpose of a logic puzzle whereas "unlimited undo" doesn't, so I can't understand why the hints and solutions are allowed and "unlimited undo" isn't.

Why do you people insist on no "Unlimited Undos" and keep treating DROD like a turn-based strategy game like chess while it is comletely different from it?

I think DROD is a puzzle game and it should be treated like one.

Although I a single person cannot force your democratic republic to change its decision, can someone please take pity on me and provide me with a patch or a compiled executable with "Unlimited Undo" enabled, so that I could play the game without being continually frustrated.

(P.S. I've never played chess. I don't want to play chess.)

[Last edited by NavySeal at 05-06-2010 04:33 PM]
05-06-2010 at 04:28 PM
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Someone Else
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I'm assuming that you didn't read the whole thread, as people rarely do when they enter a conversation late (as in 2 years late), so here are the people who have summed up why UU is a bad idea best (in my opinion):
mrimer wrote:
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Mattcrampy wrote:
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Abbyzzmal wrote:
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I think these are pretty good points. After you read them, I think that you'll have a better idea of why you shouldn't be asking for it. I have yet to finish reading through the thread again, so I might add a few more if I find them.
05-06-2010 at 05:25 PM
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Schik
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The official stance has always been that binary mods or alternate executables for DROD are not allowed on the forum. So while someone could contact NavySeal and arrange to privately give him a modified copy and we won't try to stop it, please don't use the forum for distributing modified executables or non-official executables.

Edit: Also, since the discussion continued here I'm going to delete your duplicate posts - please just post your request *once* in the future.

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[Last edited by Schik at 05-06-2010 07:13 PM]
05-06-2010 at 07:11 PM
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silver
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Also, no one except for the core developers could possibly make a version that has unlimited undo and connects to CaravelNet (thus allowing you to upload scores) - the CaravelNet part of the code is not open source and not released with the rest of the bundle. So while you could make a version with unlimited undo, some core community aspects would be missing.


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05-06-2010 at 10:25 PM
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Jatopian
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That sounds fine to me. This has always been a single-player game to me, and that means you shouldn't care what I do with my copy. Let me at it.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 05-07-2010 01:03 AM]
05-07-2010 at 01:03 AM
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