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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
For my rooms, the arrow at 6, 1, in 6E should probably be removed, since it appears to block you in without accessory use if you go up there at all.

I expected the player to be coming in from the east most of the time in 1S3E, the key and shovels in the top right is completely free coming in from the top and you can't come from the east at all without using a bridge. Not sure if this is worth changing but its worth noting.



As for the three separate mirror shields on the level, something should definitely be done to differentiate or make multiple mirror shields useful. Maybe you could set it up so that the boss gets weaker if you sacrifice a mirror shield up to 3 times?

That or you just change two of them to be different shields.

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09-28-2025 at 05:51 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I did a new run with the silver oar changes (which I think is a very centralizing mechanic, but I'm one to talk) and used that plus a large pile of HP to rush the yellow oath and completely steamroll the rest of the level. Capping the attack from the yellow oath is necessary unless we want players running around with +210 attack on the weapon (I figured it would be strong, but that's way more than I expected).

Most of my comments are on structure rather than numbers because the yellow oath is so broken that it makes any other strategy irrelevant.

Stats (for comedic purposes):
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More notes:
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[Last edited by blorx1 at 09-28-2025 08:49 PM]
09-28-2025 at 08:28 PM
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komachi
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File: Komachis Hold Anonymous 4.drh (87.8 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I made some changes for the 1S4E room so the altar can be reached more easily.
09-28-2025 at 09:15 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v15.drh (136.5 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
v15 changelog:
- Images for Harvest scroll and scroll of cooling (thanks LovaP48)
- 6E: Removed force arrow blocking return from North
- 1S4E: Author made numerous adjustments to the room
- 1N3E: Dropped merchant cost to 15k, removed 4 free yellow keys, capped Oath at 75 ATK max. We're going to test this at 3 ATK per key still but blorx has suggested 2 ATK per key (then I'd cap it at 70 which was the original level rules) so we'll see how this goes for now
- 1N6E: Fixed the scroll text to reflect the actual formula in the script (1 HP per 5 greckles)
- 1S8E: Replaced Mirror shield with Aluminum shield
- 2E: Added inventory token
- 1N7E: Added inventory token
- 8E: Added inventory token

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-28-2025 10:01 PM]
09-28-2025 at 09:59 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Regarding the 1N5E comments:
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09-28-2025 at 10:54 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
bomber50 wrote:
Regarding the 1N5E comments:
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09-28-2025 at 11:04 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Regarding 1N6E and how it's impossible to get North and back without an accessory - I wouldn't mind a bridge between the lower parts. It shouldn't break 6E (you can then go North but not South without fighting the Elf Guards).
09-29-2025 at 03:23 AM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Got to the Level 3 boss room (v15).

Started with blorx stat stalwart, ended with
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My path through the level:
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Thoughts:
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09-29-2025 at 04:03 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Oof. I...don't have a great first impression of the new level. I'm probably just not good enough at the game for this.

I did a whole run of the first two levels to be (hopefully) well-optimized for the third. I came in with better stats, more health, lots of green keys. I even managed to use the flux gems intelligently enough to get the stats from behind both "stat defenders" without taking any damage from either of them, without using the scroll of protection this time.

But the third level is just...way too much. Everything costs too much health, or has way too high of an attack threshold. Like, for example, why are there slayers in the very first column of the level???

But mostly, I feel like a lot of people took monsters that feel clearly intended for the kind of stats one might have in the later half of the level and threw them into the first half. The roach princess with their 399 DEF eggs are the most egregious, and used seemingly all over the place. They basically gate off a ton of things that I would NEED for the later half, behind having 400 attack first, which isn't really achievable from what I can tell. I used up nearly every resource I came into the level with, and basically ran out of health with nowhere to get more health around 5E.

...Really not a fan of the way the choke point at 3E severely limits pass-throughs, either--I mean, unless you just have 3000 health lying around to spare.


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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-29-2025 04:35 AM]
09-29-2025 at 04:34 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Xindaris wrote: why are there slayers in the very first column of the level???
They are meant to inflict damage on adjacent tiles, not to be killed (except one that is killable by fire trap).

I agree that reducing the DEF of roach eggs is probably one of the first changes we should look at making. Maybe around 320 or even 300?

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09-29-2025 at 01:08 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Regarding the Roach Princesses, I think the idea was that you either kill them first, or you temporarily give up on passing them until you've cleared out most of the level.

At least, that was my assumption when using them.

Of course, that was with the assumption that people would be placing lots of stats like they were in the previous levels. Haven't played this level yet, but it sounds like people were a lot less generous than on previous levels, which would lead to the Royal Eggs being too tough for their intended purpose.

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09-29-2025 at 03:14 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Nuntar wrote:
I agree that reducing the DEF of roach eggs is probably one of the first changes we should look at making. Maybe around 320 or even 300?

On my first run without the yellow oath and down about 7 attack left on previous floors I found it feasible to hit 320 attack with some aggressive routing to grab the spear and big attack gems quickly. I did have the jimmy shield and used the pick to get both +20s on level 2 so I could also see these stats being just a bit higher than I'd otherwise aim for - especially since I had to use mistblade for one of the two +20s I got.

That route allowed opening up wubbas (also at 320) and getting into the east part of the level as well with a reasonable route by grabbing the mirror shield relatively early.

With that in mind, 320 is probably better than 300 but I could even see going just a bit higher like 340. I know there's also talk of lowering other enemy statlines and I think that just opening up other fights a little more to help get attack might leave the queens around as an interesting constraint.

Certainly in my first room, bumping custom enemies down would probably be warranted since I definitely see the player taking more damage than I expected when I made it.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 09-29-2025 04:49 PM]
09-29-2025 at 04:47 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v16.drh (136.7 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+6)  
Made some sweeping changes, as I feel like it is my responsibility to do so. Here's a bunch of changes, mostly aimed at making the start easier, particularly getting the equipment and stats from the North ASAP, as the way things worked out that is where the effort needed to be put.

I have made these changes without consulting the authors, please let me know if you don't like any of them. I figured I'd change first then ask for forgiveness later, as right now people are not liking the level and it will be easier to make further tweaks if the level is more reasonable to get started on.

v16 changelog:
- 1E: Added an extra bomb to make it more feasible to go South earlier than normal without having to adjust egg values for the rest of the level, which seemed more fun. Going South ended up being a dead end, so I'm not sure the initial routing plans for this room worked out anyway. Also moved the HP the woodpeckers to incentivise going that way first, as going North is much worse currently.
- 1N1E: Remove top row of obstacles (green door or 5 dirt + 3 firetraps) to make going north at the start seem even remotely competitive. Changed open blue door to open green door because this attack gem is too important to get right away to get started in the level.
- 2N2E: Slowed down turn speed of initial cutscene so it skips more quickly. Removed a yellow key as the 5 yk cache was a bit ridiculous. I'd have removed another but I like how the 4 yks fit onto the 2x2 open door aesthetically. Fixed typo (purusing -> pursuing)
- 1S2E: Added tunnel so you can enter 1S3E from the West, which seemed like it would make things more interesting
- 2S2E: Repositioned scroll behind health potion
- 3E: Removed two firetraps because 3k HP for the repeatable path, each time, was extremely terrible. Considering the enemy rebalances this seems better now.
- 6E: Replaced duplicate mirror shield with large def gem. It was this one or the one in 1S2E but I liked how the other one helps to tackle this room.
- 1S6E: Made essence drinker give 50 less GR with each use. Added a scroll explaining this, and a MyDescription on the essence drinker updating this current GR value each time. Made it so you can't use him after the greedy man in 1N6E is used. Essence drinker was just a really good HP to GR conversion and I wanted greckles to be a bit more of a difficult choice.
- 1S8E: Added inventory token
- Reduced Woodpecker attack 460 -> 430
- Reduced Roach Princess HP 600 -> 450
- Reduced Jumping Spider HP 800 -> 500 (this enemy appears a lot earlier so this makes it better in the early rooms, might have gone too far)
- Reduced Cogwork Dancer attack 675 -> 475 (2 of these block the spear so this makes them more manageable and the other appearance in 1S5E was not even remotely competitive with a longer pathway)
- Reduced Terminator attack 800 -> 600 and def 240 -> 140 (previous stat line seemed outrageous)

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-29-2025 10:23 PM]
09-29-2025 at 10:18 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
The new fixes feel very playable. I ran through the majority of the level but took a break after finishing much of it. Here's a big pile of notes on my route.

I started with the KM stats which seemed like a normal start although I suspect not having the mistblade and scrap shield makes it a not so great start than the others even if it has slightly better stats and hp.

Stats at the moment (most rooms cleared, but haven't opened level boss, admittedly I'll probably need to scrounge some HP before I do that). I suspect this run could be piloted a bit better to win, especially if I routed in silver oar but the gap between an optimized run and this run will be enormous.
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[Last edited by blorx1 at 09-30-2025 02:14 PM]
09-30-2025 at 05:42 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
Finished up that run. I did notice while cleaning up that
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Stats:
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Notes:
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Summary of suggestions:
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[Last edited by blorx1 at 10-01-2025 01:42 AM]
09-30-2025 at 02:14 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (0)  
Pachy, is it intended that maids strike in addition to the normal sword hit? Are you fine with me removing that? Also what's the intent with Ferrymen, they are very unfightable. Were you expecting them to be fightable, and if so, when?
10-01-2025 at 12:10 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote:
Also what's the intent with Ferrymen, they are very unfightable. Were you expecting them to be fightable, and if so, when?

FWIW the level actually spits out a lot more large stat boosts near the end than I originally realized when I was complaining about them. They have low attack so they end up mostly just being a big def wall, but on a re-reroute of the level I might actually be able to leave them alive to save the resources in this room. Admittedly the 444/444/444 statline is a bit arbitrary, but it's plenty reachable and probably appropriate for an optimized run to fight.

I mostly had to drop the southern one that wastes the crate because I didn't have the stats to get the mirror shield early with your start.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 10-01-2025 01:40 AM]
10-01-2025 at 01:39 AM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I'm totally fine with the traversal cost being lowered in 3E but I'd prefer if a single cooling scroll doesn't solve the entire room if possible, I think that makes it a lot less interesting
10-01-2025 at 03:25 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I wholeheartedly approve of the latest changes! I was able to reach the boss room now, and the level's more fun (or at least more accessible to me personally) in general.

Starting stats (unequipped):
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Starting equipment:
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End stats (unequipped):
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Ending equipment:
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Route notes/commentary:
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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-01-2025 09:33 PM]
10-01-2025 at 04:24 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Response to Xindaris regarding 2S1E:

Glad you used a bridge like that. When making the room, I was hoping the level layout would lead to that being a viable use of the accessory.

The pressure plate IS pushable without using an accessory, but it will be expensive.
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10-01-2025 at 04:58 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Xindaris wrote:
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So 7E is one of those puzzly rooms I like to design because it ends up being a slight optimization challenge to find a way to minimize hits taken. Fighting the skippers ended up being a bit harder than I intended at the point you first enter the room (I targeted taking 2khp at 450attack), although I think that after cleaning out the level and dropping their def by 50 will make them a bit more killable by the end. That being said, if they're killable much earlier it becomes a no brainer to kill one immediately which is undesirable.

I'm guessing what happened is that you moved the southern platform out from under the skipper? And in hindsight it's unfortunate that you can lock the room in a painful state by doing that. From the starting state if you just want to get through the room you should need only
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An interesting option might be to nerf the attack to 80 and then include a brain behind two green gates (going to 80 might balance out the damage from the wave walkers and give players a relief valve if the room gets messed up.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 10-01-2025 05:39 AM]
10-01-2025 at 05:22 AM
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Pachy
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote:
Pachy, is it intended that maids strike in addition to the normal sword hit? Are you fine with me removing that? Also what's the intent with Ferrymen, they are very unfightable. Were you expecting them to be fightable, and if so, when?

I wanted the Maids to hit twice per attack but I'm not knowledgeable enough in DROD scripting to accomplish that, so making them have Evil Eye property while carrying a sword was my compromise. Their ATK can be reduced if it's a bit problematic.

The Ferryman I mostly just wanted to make a joke of having their stats all be "444". I expect them to be fought at the very end, but I might have also overestimate on how much ATK the player can reasonably get. I figured that it may also be fine to keep their DEF as it is since there are the Mistblades that ignores enemy DEF, and of course by simply dropping them off by the rafts.
10-01-2025 at 11:59 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Pachy wrote:
I wanted the Maids to hit twice per attack but I'm not knowledgeable enough in DROD scripting to accomplish that, so making them have Evil Eye property while carrying a sword was my compromise.

I don't think it's possible to simultaneously have an enemy attack twice per monster turn, and maintain an accurate damage number projection - the baseline of "monster does one hit per monster turn" is too baked-in to the game.

(You could probably set up an "Each Attack" label and use scripting to do an extra attack after the first attack, but this would cause Maids to do way more damage than the interface would make it seem, plus it would make defense twice as good against them as usual. So pretty drastic balancing change from what we have now, maybe worth revisiting some other time.)

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10-01-2025 at 06:13 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
blorx1 wrote: I'm guessing what happened is that you moved the southern platform out from under the skipper?
Well, not exactly; really I just took a couple of steps inside, tried to figure out any way at all to reach or do anything without dunking the potion or key of the south platform into the water, and didn't really get anywhere...so I reset the room and left. By the time I got there, that 2000 to 2200 health, or even just 200 health per hit for what looked likely to be at least 5 hits, was way too high of a toll for the kinda low health I'd landed at.

P.S. When I wrote my post last night, one of my entire sentences was in the wrong paragraph, and probably looked like nonsense. Fixed it now.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-01-2025 09:37 PM]
10-01-2025 at 09:36 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+4)  
I decided to test level 3 starting from midway of level 2, when I still had the scrap shield and I could take the lucky greckle as early as possible.
The run is not optimized at all, I entered level 3 after the tax with:

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Behold, the worst optimized run of level 3 ever.
Despite that, I managed to survive this, without ever taking the yellow oath.
Here are some comments on the main things I did, as well as some suggestions/feedback.

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I entered the boss room with these stats:
4910 HP
528 ATK (spear)
517 DEF (aluminum shield)
16/8/1/0/26
26 shovels
11976 GR
27849 REP
Inventory: jimmy, mirror shield, wooden shield
Accessory: 1 scrolls of might (I definitely needed to use this but I forgot), scroll of protection, 2 mobius token.

Final comments:
The level felt a lot more complicated to parse, navigate and to strategize, though that could be related to the fact that I was always low on health. While it’s still possible to complete it without optimizing the first 2 levels, casual players might find this quite intimidating.
I could get more greckles and HP of course, as well as the silver oar if I need it.


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There's just this one, just this rock.
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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 10-02-2025 11:25 PM]
10-02-2025 at 11:14 PM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Red-XIII wrote:
Since I need to enter the north section swordless (unless I use a extend bridge or 2 cooling scrolls in 1n6e) why not adding an inventory square in 2n6e or the west part of 1n6e?

For what it's worth I'm opposed to adding an extra inventory token there, the reason that is a swordless only path is because I was hoping it would force you to do some stuff without a sword, which worked out reasonably well.

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10-02-2025 at 11:33 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v17.drh (136.8 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
Here's a new version with some suggestions implemented. I still haven't played this level much beyond the opening, but sounds like it still needs some bigger changes. There are some problems I want to address, but been busy so far and also not totally sure what to do yet.

v17 changelog
- 1N2E: Crate is no longer free
- 1N3E: Replaced jumping spider with woodpecker, downgraded green door near keg to yellow door and put 150 HP on it
- 3E: Put hot tiles either side of the fire trap.
- 4E: Added inventory token.
- 5E: Removed two fire traps.
- Fixed ambient music not restoring when returning from inventory
- Ghost skipper: Lowered DEF 350 -> 300
- Maid: Lowered ATK 600 -> 550
- Elf Guard: Lowered ATK 570 -> 520
10-03-2025 at 12:06 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
Sorry this is coming right after that update, but I have a script fix for the gems of potential. This will have them properly account for the _ItemMult variables, which they probably should've done in the first place. This will ensure they properly keep their promise of "giving you an attack gem", etc., even with wacky things like the harvest scroll involved. (EDIT: It also tells the player how much they'll get in the answer options now, for good measure.)

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-03-2025 01:40 AM]
10-03-2025 at 01:32 AM
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