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Chaco
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icon Time After Time (+1)  
Well, here's a preview of that new hold I mentioned I was working on a couple of times: it's all about time tokens!

I'm aiming for a pseudo-tutorial that doesn't exactly hold the player's hand, but demonstrates several useful techniques that are useful in other holds, starting from the basics and building on them into real subtle manipulation later on.

My goal is probably to have around six or seven (maybe eight?) levels, although that's going to depend on how many ideas I have - right now I have levels split up into sets of 4 in steadily increasing difficulty, but I'll certainly give level layouts some more thought after I have some more rooms.

Anyway, play, enjoy, and let me know what you think.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-22-2018 01:55 AM]
09-30-2017 at 04:44 PM
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File: Time After Time ROsD.demo (3.7 KB)
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icon Re: Time After Time (+4)  
Floor 1 : This level introduced general knowledge of temporal token for players who don't know it.
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Floor 2 : This level explain temporal token a bit detailed.
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I have attached the demo if you need it.

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[Last edited by Resert On at 10-01-2017 05:56 AM]
10-01-2017 at 05:53 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time Oct. 1st Update (0)  
Thanks for the comments and demos! They were short but direct.

Here's a new version of the hold with some minor changes and fixes:

* Level 1 1E has a new time clone and platform loading area that should be more straightforward, and enforce the idea I want to show in that room. It's still an easy room, maybe easier now.

* Level 2 The Entrance: added force arrows. Makes it more obvious what to do, but also enforces that Beethro use the west hallway and a time clone use the east hallway. Movement order shouldn't matter here like it does for 1N.

* Level 2 1N: Changed order of doors so the failure condition should actually be enforced now.

* Level 2 1E: Added evil eye to force somebody to go in the south chamber, and added fire trap to west briar mechanism to enforce failure if the east briar ever hits the plate.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 10-01-2017 08:30 PM]
10-01-2017 at 08:30 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Time After Time (+4)  
Comments are mostly based on the earlier version, as updating would probably invalidate some demos.

Floor 1:
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Floor 2:
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A general bug which appears in this room, not related to hold design:
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Floor 3:
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Floor 4:
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Floor 5:
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Comments on new version:
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[Last edited by bbb at 10-15-2017 11:42 AM : Correction]
10-03-2017 at 06:14 PM
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Insoluble
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File: Time After Time.demo (19.4 KB)
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icon Re: Time After Time (+4)  
Played through the first few floors. Demos are attached. I'm kind of unsure who the target audience is here. The difficulty level jumps around quite a bit and so far it's feels as though the hold has a hard time finding its identity. Some rooms do feel a bit like a pseudo tutorial, but a lot of rooms definitely feel more of the You'd-better-have-played-Advanced-Concepts-3-or-else-you-won't know-where-to-begin variety. I actually tended to like the latter sort of room better, but if you are going for more of a tutorialish kind of hold, I'll try to note the rooms that seem out of line with that. That being said, I'm probably exactly the wrong kind of person to be commenting on difficulty here and I imagine it would be good to get some comments from someone not as comfortable with some of the more advanced time clone tricks.

Floor 1 Nothing to say here. Everything felt very much in line with your description of the hold as kind of a time clone trainer. The rooms showed off basic time clone behavior without getting too complex. Difficulty was probably 4 brain or so. Everything looked nicely polished.

Floor 2
The entrance was oddly easy to just brute force, leaving me thinking I had maybe missed something important. I didn't use the orb at (7,30), so maybe there's an extra bit to this that isn't being enforced.
1N: is a room that will probably get some H&S posts. This definitely felt like it veered off from the difficulty curve set by previous rooms. Dealing with multiple events within a turn is something that is probably tricky enough already. you at least hint at this in the scrolls. But I suspect a lot of folks aren't as familiar with the mirror bump move needed to get the eastenrmost plate. Since that requires some fairly arcane knowledge of turn order that doesn't even have to do with time clones, I'd suggest it may be a bit much for level 2 of a hold that mentions the word tutorial in it's description. That being said, this was one of my favorite rooms and I'd hate to see it go to waste.
1N1E: A nice disrupting the timeline room. Probably about the right level for something introducing this concept. Definitely on the upper end if you are aiming this hold at folks who don't feel very comfortable with time clones.
1E: There are a lot of extra time tokens here. It may be that you are trying to be generous, but I think these actually detract from the room. It's more of a red herring than anything else.

Floor 3
The entrance This was a nice intro to using time clones to attract monsters. After a bit of thought it was pretty clear that must be the central concept of the room. I was kind of disappointed when that concept didn't come up in the level at all later on in the level. It might be good to reinforce it in a room later on in the level if you are really going for something tutorially with this hold.
1N: was a neat little room. I really wish something could be done to make cleanup less of a chore at the end though.
1N1E: Seems like it may be another room that gives people a rough time. This is definitely a more abstract disrupting the time-line since you need to think about displacing things in time. It also requires a bit of counting to get things to line up right. Don't get me wrong, I love a good count now and again and I definitely enjoyed this room a lot. But I suspect this is another one that might feel on the high end of the difficulty you may be going for.
1E: Is maybe too easy? I had a lot of tokens leftover at the end. You could probably tighten this one up a bit without making it too difficult.

I'm enjoying this a lot so far and hope to play the next few levels soon.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 10-10-2017 12:21 PM]
10-10-2017 at 03:55 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time October 23rd Update (0)  
Alright, a new version of Time After Time is out, with more rooms and some re-balancing. Here's the changelog:

* Swapped floors 2 and 3, and renamed all the level names so discussion about older
room coordinates doesn't blend in with new room coordinates. Also messed with levels' room styles.

* Cracked all the orbs in Gamma: Entrance to enforce using each orb only once.

* Replaced Gamma 1N's eastern section with a better one that doesn't rely on a Weird Trick, but instead a probably more deducible one since it's similar to the one in the middle section.

* Beta now has new room in 1N1E, old version moved to 2N1E as secret room.

* Beta 1E re-worked into a region-counting puzzle.

* Old Floor 3 1N1E moved to Delta 1N.

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10-23-2017 at 10:10 PM
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Insoluble
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File: Time After Time.demo (23.6 KB)
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icon Re: Time After Time October 23rd Update (0)  
Sorry to have been such a slacker at testing this. Looks like a lot of new stuff. I played the first four levels but it is now close to 2:00am and I am too tired to count. Here's some feedback though:

Alpha
Looks like my demo for 1E: Broke, but I feel like I'm solving it the same way. Otherwise seems like everything is in order. The main jarring thing is that a lot of these time tokens don't have checkpoints on them. It's pretty common to put checkpoints on time tokens to make it easy to instantly rewind to the beginning of a recording, and I've gotten used to hitting R out of habit to do that. It would be nice to try to have checkpoints on the time tokens whenever possible. That applies to most of these levels actually.

Beta
1N1E: The new version is a bit simpler and probably a better fit in terms of difficulty. I'm glad you preserved the old version as a secret in 2N1E though, I liked that version of the room a lot.
1E: The older version of this room was a bit too loose I guess, but this one felt super tight. Seems like I couldn't waste a single turn. Fair enough I suppose, though it can be a bit tricky planning out the paths I'm going to take for all the clones. The checkpoints on the time tokens were well appreciated though! Made it much easier to do the readjustments as I went.

Gamma
The Entrance: I see what you were going for in this one now. This is a nice simple time clone blocking room. Probably a good one to start with as it doesn't involve any other potentially tricky mechanics.
1N: This is probably a more fair room than the previous version (though I rather enjoyed that one.) This is definitely more in line with the difficulty level of the rest of the rooms on this level. I hope you find a way to reincorporate that mirror bumping widget into another room though, it was pretty neat.
1N1E: This one was completely new I think? Nice room. I enjoyed it.
1E: Still broken I think. I didn't use most of the time tokens.

Delta
The Entrance: This one was also new to me. I like how it mirrors the entrance to a previous level while adding an interesting twist. I would recommend moving the level entrance a tile north for the benefit of fools like me who tend to randomly spam keys while waiting for the next level to load. That way I won't accidentally back into the stairs on my first turn. What? I can't be the only person that does this?
1N: I remember this one from before. Probably more appropriate on a later level like this one. Didn't record a demo for it in this version yet, though it looks like the solution is basically the same.
1N1E: Pretty sure I'm doing something unintended here.
1E: Nice room. Maybe slightly on the easier side than the others on this level, but still in a good range.

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02-13-2018 at 07:13 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time Feb. 16th Update (0)  
Oof, meant to get another update out sooner. But at least there's one now.

* New rooms at Gamma 2N1E, Delta 2N1E, Epsilon 2N1E, all of Zeta, and Eta 1N.

* Fixed some of Insoluble's unintended solutions to Gamma 1E and Delta 1N1E with very simple changes. Moved some checkpoints around too.

* Added a new challenge to Beta 1N1E, after noticing a new technique that helps out with it.

* Delta 1E: Removed one time token. Of course, the room's still possible. The difficulty should now be more in line with the other rooms; I expect Delta to be a decently tougher level than the preceding three.

--

Anyway, I expect to probably stop at level 8 (Theta), since I'll have covered all the topics I want to cover. Maybe I'll make a final Omega room. Depends on how much inspiration I have.

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02-16-2018 at 10:52 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Alpha: 2N1E
The room is a good room which demonstrates that a time clone can just sit around doing nothing except for weighing down a pressure plate. However, it doesn't seem worthy of being a secret room, even if only on the first level.

Gamma: Entrance
The second orb comes before the third in both stages, so only one time clone has to be delayed. This makes the existence of the third orb unnecessary for the main solution. Maybe change the order of the doors in the second pass to 3-2-1.

Gamma: 1N
Maybe add a challenge not to destroy all mirrors, in order to hint at the two solution types for the left chamber.

Gamma: 1N1E
Nice challenge.

Gamma: 2N1E
You should try to find a way to show the pressure plate order to the east. (Color coding?)

Delta: 2N1E
You can kill the eye immediately, and use one of the clones to tap the pressure plates.

Epsilon: 1N
Three time clones prepared the path to the brain and then got pushed to the correct place. After that there is no need to find a joint path through the chambers to the north, as two of them are not used.

Epsilon: 1E
Looks scarier than it is.

Epsilon: 2N1E
The pressure plate is difficult to see on the arrow.

Zeta: 1N
The northern briar doesn't seem to play any role.

Eta: 1N:
Two extra tokens.


02-19-2018 at 03:32 PM
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Finished playing through the rest of the complete levels. Demos attached as always.

Old business:
Some of my demos in Beta broke, but I think this was just due to room layouts changing not to substantive changes to the rooms.

Gama: 1E appears to be working as you intended now I think. At the very least I'm pretty sure I need all the tokens.

Delta 1N: Re did this room. I think it's pretty much the same solution as what I had before. Pretty sure this is along the lines of what you intended.

Delta 1N1E: I think this is fixed now.

Delta 1E: My demo broke for this one too. Based on your comments it looks like you removed a time token. Makes for slightly trickier coordination. This is probably about the same difficulty as the rest of the level now.

New business:
Epsilon
The Entrance: Everything about this room makes it look like I'm supposed to record the time clone on the left side and push him over. It's not enforced though, so I didn't bother with the stick at all.

1N: I tried breaking this one, but I think the pushing is enforced here. This was a nice little room. Mostly about superimposing the mazes on one another to find a path that works for all of them (I used an image editor for this but it would probably be easy enough to do without). Fun room. This feels like a step down in difficulty from the previous level, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

1N1E: Another fun little room. It's not to hard to figure out what needs to be done and coordination is pretty simple with just one clone too. Again, this level is feeling a bit easier than the previous one. The one thing I didn't really

2N1E: First of all, I like how this secret is hidden in plain sight. The room itself is a bit trickier than the others on this level in that you have to figure out exactly how and by how much to offset the clone. Once you do that execution is pretty straightforward though.

1E: I found this one to be interesting in concept, keeping track of which trapdoors the time clone will have dropped is a bit much. I took a screen shot and just marked them down in an image editor. It would be super cool if there was a way to say, light up the tiles in the water that Beethro has passed over or something like that so that. It's not a huge deal, I don't personally mind breaking out an image editor for something like this, but it may be nice to add for convenience if it isn't too hard to script in.

Zeta
The Entrance: I feel like I was expecting something more involved to be going on here. For such a late level in this hold I sort of sleepwalked through this one.

1N: I feel like I may be doing something unintended here. It feels like there should be more going on with the northeastern bit of briar. On the whole these past two rooms feel like they have a lot of elements that are just sort of there. I suspect that there's something I'm supposed to be doing for both of them that just isn't being enforced.

1N1E: I think I'm doing mostly the correct thing in this one at least. I did not see what the soldier horn was supposed to be for, but always appreciate the opportunity to hear the fail sound.

1E: Those potions and kegs were a bit of a mean red herring. I whole-hardheartedly approve.

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02-20-2018 at 06:28 AM
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bbb
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
Insoluble wrote:
Delta 1E: My demo broke for this one too. Based on your comments it looks like you removed a time token. Makes for slightly trickier coordination. This is probably about the same difficulty as the rest of the level now.

If I remember correctly, the old room didn't need coordination. Just preparation.

quote:
Insoluble wrote:
Epsilon
1N: I tried breaking this one, but I think the pushing is enforced here...

I did, by pushing the clones which stab the brains.

Epsilon 1N1E: Can be broken by following a path in the open area from the west entrance.

quote:
Insoluble wrote:
Zeta
1N1E: I think I'm doing mostly the correct thing in this one at least. I did not see what the soldier horn was supposed to be for, but always appreciate the opportunity to hear the fail sound.

I think it was to show that stepping on the horn cancels the clone recording.

Some mini-challenges for this room:
1. Step on token for recording after killing two roaches with sword.
2. Step on token once and roaches may not be killed by bombs.
3. Successfully call soldier into room during victory.

quote:
Insoluble wrote:
1E: Those potions and kegs were a bit of a mean red herring. I whole-hardheartedly approve.

I never activated the clones.
02-20-2018 at 02:50 PM
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
bbb wrote:
I did, by pushing the clones which stab the brains.


Don't know if I'd call that a break. You still need to use all the clones and you still need to use pushing mechanics. It's the kind of thing that I would probably leave as allowable if I were the architect.

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02-20-2018 at 04:56 PM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time February 26th Update (0)  
Time after Time has been updated again! Featuring: fixes to old rooms, and some new rooms!

Gamma 2N1E: Made a new room entirely; old room is consigned to the "Rooms to Rework" section and might get kicked out of the hold entirely.

Delta 2N1E: Replaced eastern 3-tile doors with firetraps instead, to kill "main Beethro" if they get closed mid-run. Also added more room in the final roach area to make filing in the timeclones a little less awkward.

Epsilon The Entrance: Added an orb and door that should enforce recording in west half and pushing into east half.

Epsilon 1N: After thinking about this for a while, I think fixing bbb's break is probably more trouble than it's worth and would make the room way more complicated than it already is. (For example, adding hot tiles or bad pressure plates are insufficient; it would just increase the execution requirements of the break without actually making it impossible.) So I think I probably won't bother.

Epsilon 2N1E: Moved plates and tunnels a little bit in eastern half. Should be functionally the same but maybe look better?

Epsilon 1E: Rigged up a bunch of ghost display characters to show which squares were already visited. Let me know if this looks OK, lags your machine, etc.

Zeta 1N: I think I fixed the western part's time token mechanism now. It should be impossible to step on the time token now without also hitting the orb (and thus having Beethro's sword NE).

Zeta 1N1E: Added some trapdoors by the time token to prevent re-using it if it gets cancelled. Reconfigured room a bit to get rid of some potential unintended solutions.

Zeta 2N1E: Added secret room.

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02-27-2018 at 03:21 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time after Time March 18th Update (0)  
Yet another update!

This update just adds the main four rooms of level 7 (Eta). There's no substantial secret room there yet.

I'd like to do one more level as a finisher, possibly with a single final challenge in level 9 (not sure about that latter one yet), and then I'll call the hold done.

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03-18-2018 at 09:13 PM
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icon Re: Time after Time March 18th Update (+1)  
Old Business.
Epsilon The Entrance: Appears to be fixed now.
Epsilon 1E: Looks really good actually. This makes the room a whole lot more user friendly and is much appreciated.
Zeta 1N: Also appears to be fixed. Don't think there's a way to get Beethro out of the bomb area without hitting the orb or killing Beethro.
Zeta 1N1E: Looks like dropping the horn is enforced now. Haven't cleared it yet though.

New business: Eta
Eta: The Entrance: A bit long, but fun room. Mostly straightforward, but coordinating was a bit tricky. I made no attempt to optimize this, but suspect it will add an extra and interesting layer of difficulty to the room.
1N: Not sure if I am doing this as intended. I did not use all the time tokens. I like my solution though. Had fun with this room.
1N1E: I will try this one again when it is not past 2:00AM
1E: I didn't use a lot of things in this room. Suspect what I am doing is not intended.

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03-27-2018 at 07:16 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time after Time April 21st Update (0)  
quote:
Insoluble wrote:
Eta
1N: Not sure if I am doing this as intended. I did not use all the time tokens. I like my solution though. Had fun with this room.


It's not, but that's a clever enough solution I'll allow that to stay. It's basic enough that I don't think I'll bother making a 3-token challenge for it though; if people figure out either the 3-token or 4-token solution those are both OK by me.

--

New update!

Eta 1E should be fixed; I added a single green door to enforce at least killing the brains before hitting the southern switch. I think this forces all the other elements of the room to come into play; we'll see though.

Theta The Entrance and Once East added. You can see some room concept drafts in 1N1E, 1N, 2N1E, and Omega The Entrance.

Rooms to Rework level removed. I put those rooms in my private room stash; they might come back later or not at all.

Not sure if I'm going to add a mastery section; if I do it's going to be very small.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-22-2018 01:54 AM]
04-22-2018 at 01:54 AM
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icon Re: Time After Time (+2)  
(After the 22 April update)

Alpha: Really cool rooms with an easy/average difficulty.

Beta Entrance:

Erm... I feel like I'm missing something. I'm stuck I don't see how to finish this room, that seems quite simple :blush

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04-22-2018 at 10:25 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
Dali wrote:
Beta Entrance:

Erm... I feel like I'm missing something. I'm stuck I don't see how to finish this room, that seems quite simple :blush




No problem - this hold is meant to be educational! Here's some hints, in increasing order:

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04-22-2018 at 12:27 PM
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Ok It helped a lot :p I didn't know about this property.

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04-22-2018 at 12:39 PM
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