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jokokoe
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1N2E: I forget to make the mud drawing, it was not intentional and it is now fixed. As said in the answer to Insoluble, the plant is now a keg to make the room a bit harder.
The tar/mud/gel as been lighten in the same way as the other rooms, looks much better now. Thank you :)



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06-11-2018 at 06:43 PM
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Two new level added.

Impact Crater, a level about time tokens. I still need to write the description entrance text.

The Director's House, the post-mastery level. Inside you can find :

Click here to view the secret text


I'm working on a final last level and the theme will be the alternative weapons Beethro can use. Slowly but surely this project is ending !

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06-15-2018 at 12:48 AM
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Hello everyone !

After two long month of hard work I finally had the time to finish the Hold. two new levels have been added, Dismantling Plant which is all about seeding beacons and constructs and the Yard, focused on other weapons than sword.

Even If I have more ideas for new levels, I think the Hold is now really looking to what I was thinking of. I will launch a game and finish the Hold to see if I can find any bugs in the scripting part. Feel free to keep testing the levels that need to be tested and give me your opinion. I hope I'll be able to send the Hold to the admins in less than a month ...

Game on !

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09-21-2018 at 06:22 PM
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Glad to see you back! I played through the two new levels. I didn't complete all rooms though. I found a few to be pretty unpleasant and stopped playing after about 10 or 15 minutes. The rest were mostly enjoyable. It looks like you've been updating the list of what needs testing on the first page of the thread. I'll try to take a look at some of those levels soon too.

The Yard:
The difficult varied a lot from room to room here. Since this is mostly horde rooms, the difficulty is going to be subjective based on what kinds of techniques the player is familiar with, but it still felt like there was a pretty big jump in difficulty between some of the rooms.

1W: I just avoided the room mechanics by making thin ice bridges. You can probably prevent this by replacing some of the water with pits or walls though that would impact the level aesthetics. You can also just leave it as a treat for optimizers.

1S1W: Very straightforward. Just a bit of experimentation is needed to find some simple techniques for killing slayers with the dagger. The speech at the end when the citizen dies is a nice touch.

1S: Fairly short and simple. This is a fun room, but the briar never quite grows fast enough to make it feel like there's really any time pressure.

1S1E: I was worried this one was going to be fiddly, but it ended up being not too bad. As long as you time the first construct kill you can fairly easily give yourself enough time to kill them all and arrange the keg. It's generally better to have checkpoints before the pressure plate instead of on them, but there are so many checkpoints in the battle arena that it's probably fine.

1E: This room was a great deal more difficult than the southern three rooms. It took a bit of planning to come up with a strategy that would allow me to be in a viable position after killing the first couple of queens. After that it mostly becomes cleanup.

1N1E: I spent a good 15 minutes trying to find a strategy that would allow me to survive after killing the first few queens. At that point I was mostly resorting to trial and error and not having much fun. I'm sure others will enjoy this room as it is, but I wouldn't complain if one or two roach queens got removed.

1N: My initial thought was, "Ugh, you want me to babysit a roach while pruning the briar?? That doesn't sound fun!" It turns out I was wrong though, it was pretty fun. The difficulty is definitely on the higher side, but this was still much more manageable than the other rooms on the northern row of this level. Instead of the relentless horde difficulty of those rooms, this one was much more about being strategic about how you cut the briar to create a space for the roach. Very fun room.

1N1W: I don't much care for water-skipper nest horde rooms and this room reminded me of just why that is. The first part of the room, getting access to the powder kegs by placing water skippers on the plates, is just fine. I can use shallow water to avoid spawn and the tactics required to manipulate the skippers on to the plates are interesting and fun. But once I have to start pushing the kegs into the shallow water things become irritating. There's really no way to avoid skipper nest spawns now and they spawn so frequently that I just end up having no fun with this at all. I was able to tolerate maybe ten minutes of this part of the room before calling it quits and moving on. Others may have a higher tolerance for this kind of room than I do and be able to give you some better feedback.

Dismantling Plant
It seems the theme here is precise monster manipulation, usually of more than one monster at a time. This can be fun sometimes, but some of the rooms were pretty exacting. I did not complete one of the rooms, partially because it's getting late and I'm losing focus, and partially because the room I left uncleared felt exhausting. Most of the rooms were a lot of fun though. The difficulty varied a bit, but was more consistent than it was in The Yard, with most rooms feeling in the 7 brain difficulty range.

1E: This was a super fun room. Easily my favorite in the level. It took me a bit to figure out what I had to do to clear the room and hit the beacon. Once I did it was very enjoyable to work backwards from the win state to figure things out. Very satisfying room.

1N1W: This was possibly the easiest room on the level. It was fairly straightforward to set the kegs into place and this felt like a natural extension of this sort of room in Rapid Fortification.

2N: Some tricky manipulation here, but it ended up being not quite as bad as I had worried it would be. It's generally better to have the checkpoint be right before the pressure plate instead of directly on it, that way the player can go back to right before stepping on it and change the timing of the threat clock if desired. I'd also request a checkpoint at (9,15) since that was an area I tended to revisit quite often.

2N1E: It looks like I need to get the puffs to congeal into fluff at just the right spot while juggling the live construct? That doesn't sound like a good time at all. I tried for maybe 10 minutes but gave up on this one.

1N2E: I mostly did trial and error for this one. Thankfully it was pretty forgiving.

2E: This was another really interesting room. I've experimented with multi-pushing a construct across oremites before, so I had a good idea of how I wanted to set this up. There isn't much to gain leverage on so the mimic manipulation is a bit tricky, but overall this was quite enjoyable.

1S1E: I experimented for a while with a method for doing this one that just barely doesn't work. I can get a construct corpse to (25,16) where it blocks the construct from moving towards me as I go for the seeding beacon, but I'm always a few moves off from having enough time before it wakes up. It took me a while to realize my entire approach was incorrect and to find a method that would work. Once I saw what to do the execution was actually pretty forgiving. This was a fun room once I realized what the correct approach was.

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09-25-2018 at 05:32 AM
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BoyBlue
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I probably won't test this whole hold systematically, but here are some possible issues, based on the hold as of 22-Sep-2018.

Sokoban Island / Beethro Learns Painting - Inconsistent alpha blending warnings. Painting has a scroll that recommends alpha blending; Sokoban has no warning, but is unplayable with alpha blending turned off.

Sokiban Island 1S1W - Easily solved by entering and leaving the arena multiple times. Same issue might exist for 1W and 1N2W.

Tiny Rooms 1E is unfriendly to CaravelNet high scores, if you care about that. Everyone will reenter from the east, and trivially clear it in 9 moves.

The Yard - Intro text misspells "Eighth".

The Yard 1W - [already reported?] You can ignore most of the room, and build ice bridges directly to the construct, and the conquer token.

The Yard 1N1E - Why no checkpoints?

The Labyrinth 1N - Not necessarily a problem, but you can kill one of the first two aumtlich right away. Then keep moving the mirror to the pressure plate on which it won't be trapped.

The Labyrinth 3N is broken because one of the pressure plates opens a door instead of toggling it.

Swampy Lake 1S1W - Trivially solved by placing the clone near a room exit.
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Swampy Lake 1S1E - Easily solved (though it's still a long room) by having the clone camp out on the yellow door at the exit.

Swampy Lake 1W - Can be solved after placing the clone inside the maze at (14,7). Probably easier than the intended solution.

Holes 1W is broken. Just kill the adders with your sword, without opening the yellow doors.

Rocky Archipelago 2N1E - You can win the challenge illegitimately. I think all you have to do is step on (11,23), which is trivial after you open the green doors.

River Crossing Entrance - [cosmetic] From the start, you can easily go back and grab a sword to bring to the staff-only area.

River Crossing Entrance - [cosmetic] When entering from the east, you have a sword. Shouldn't you have a staff?

River Crossing 1E - Trivially solved by placing the mimic at (24,1), and walking west.

09-25-2018 at 04:21 PM
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River Crossing 1N1E, 2N1E, 1N2E, 1N3E - It's safe to wake any eye that can later be lured to an active fire trap. The pressure plates that the eyes activate are useless, because you can still exit the room the way you came in.

Colorful Cavern 1N1E - You can put build markers on the pressure plates. If the wall is built on the same turn that you step off the pressure plate, its door stays open. You don't need the gentrii.

Colorful Cavern 1S1E - You can ignore the gentrii, and build ice bridges to get to the conquer token and back. Another option is to make an ice bridge to bypass the pressure plate that releases the gentrii.

Colorful Cavern 1S is unfriendly to CaravelNet high scores. Everyone will reenter from the west, and clear it in 2 moves. It'd be nice if the conquer token were unavoidable.

Fegundo Training Area 1N2W - Staying on the top two rows of the maze area makes the room very easy.

Tiny Rooms 1N2E - You can win the challenge illegitimately, by stepping on the token twice.

Tiny Rooms 1S1W - Are you supposed to be able to leave the yellow doors closed, and put the adder inside the yellow door box, with you outside it? Makes the room easy.

Tiny Rooms 1S1E, 2S1E - You can place the mimic on the conquer token, so it will have a sword instead of a dagger. That might defeat the point of the rooms, and it breaks CaravelNet high scores.

Dismantling Plant 1S1E is broken because you can hit the beacon before the pressure plate.

09-27-2018 at 03:09 PM
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jokokoe
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Thank you Insoluble for the answer !

The Yard

My first bad feeling with this level is, as you said, that difficulty is not consistent.
When I started to design it, I had a lot of ideas more or less creative but in the end most of them were a) looking like TSS puzzles b) to easy to solve. Easiest rooms for me are 1S and 1S1E.

Here are my comments and modifications based on your feedback :

1W : Didn't thought of this solution ! I added some walls and surrounded the construct with yellow doors, there shouldn't be anymore problem.
1S1W : My first idea was to make small rooms with the objective to kill a slayer with a different weapon everytime. I'll see if I can design it, because right now the room is really to easy.
1S : I tried to add another briar but this makes thing a lot, lot harder ! Maybe find a good equilibrium by adding pits ?
1E :
Click here to view the secret text

1N1E : A solution that works well is to
Click here to view the secret text

1N1W : I added two more tiles of shallow water and blocked the south passage of the north-east skippers, it should be easier and less frustrative now.


Dismantling Plant

1W (You wrote 1E on your comment but I think you wanted to write 1W) : Watching your demo gave me an idea of challenge, "never left the construct dies (and the roach) before the seeding beacon is turned off". Not really hard but needs the player to do better anticipation work.
1N1W : I replaced the two kegs by two other constructs, I think the difficulty is now consistent with the level.
2N : Modified the checkpoints based on your comment.
2N1E : This is exactly what needs to be done. I found that
Click here to view the secret text



Thank you BoyBlue for taking the time to test some rooms, it is really appreciated.

Sokoban Island :

The scroll now warn the player to turn on the alpha blending while yellow doors have been added in the listed rooms to prevent the player from exiting the puzzles.

Tiny Rooms :

1E : The conquer token is now behind a blackdoor, it should fix non wanted highscores.
1N2E : It is no more possible to step twice on the token.
1S1W : Changed the arrow orientation so the adder can't cross it until the yellow door is open.
1S1E & 2S1E : Changed the design, now the player needs to place the mimic at the good spot to correctly conquer the room.

The Yard :

The intro text has been modified (as well as the Hold description ...)
1W has been modified to prevent the player to break the room while checkpoints has been added in 1N1E.

The Labyrinth :

1N : It's another way to finish the room (easier but I don't think every player will think about it), will be good for highscores.
3N : The PP has been fixed.

The Swampy Lake :

1W : Added a conquer token, the clone now have to be placed outside the maze.
1S1W : Change the way the goblin is released, now the room should not be broken anymore.
1S1E : I replaced the yellow door by force arrows, it is no more possible to use this possibility.

River Crossing :

1E : I added force arrow, the room isn't broke anymore.
It's no more possible to exit a room when an eye has been woke up. Entrance has been upgraded and is now in adequacy with your comments.

Colorful Cavern :

1N1E : Changed the script, now the player can't build anything on the PPs.
1S1E : Added some walls and a yellow door, I don't think it is still possible to conquer the room in another way it was designed for.
1S : Conquer token is now unavoidable.

Other Levels :

Dismantling Plant 1S1E : added a yellow door.
Fegundo Training Area 1N2W : Changed the position of the queens, the roaches now always go inside the labyrinth.
Holes 1W : Added longer yellow doors.
Rocky Archipelago 2N1E : Changed a bit the Entrance, I don't think it's still possible to break the challenge.



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09-27-2018 at 10:26 PM
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Insoluble
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More Demos and comments.

Adders and Brains I realize this is Bent's level and not yours, so I'm not sure how comfortable you are making changes or if you'd rather have Bent do them. This was a really neat level though. Super fun.

The Entrance Fairly simple room based on snake timing preferences. This room will be a free #1 for whoever plays it first though since you can exit the room after stabbing mud and then solve it trivially upon reentry (see demo) I don't know if there's a good way to prevent this without ruining the minimap art unfortunately.

1S: Super cool room. I like that each block required a different method to solve it. I don't know that the green doors at the east and west end really add anything. Entering from those directions doesn't change the room and the level is open format otherwise. I'd prefer being able to explore the whole level at once.

1S1W: I used a technique for "unbraining" the snake that I think is somewhat well known now (picked it up from a BoyBlue hold from way back when.) This was a fun application of it though.

1S1E No clue what to do for this one. The brain won't path over the arrow so I need to unbrain the snake somehow for a turn. Not sure how to do that with a 2t snake and just the mirror.

1W: I got the snake into the arrow box the first time and got caught! Nice trick! I like the fact that the potion gets used for two separate things for this one.

1N1W: It was fun figuring out the ideal way to construct walls with the two serpents, but I felt like the timing in this one was a little tight. The first time I came up with a solution I ended up getting killed by briar in the very last step of killing the second snake. It would be nice if the timer were just a tiny bit looser. I would support replacing the green doors under the briar roots with firetraps that go off when the pressure plate at (25,10) gets depressed, since the room is basically solved at this point and there's no reason to make the cleanup have a timer.

1N: I solved this one with a mix of thinking through the beain preferences and just trial and error. Not much else to say about it.

1N1E: This one was also really neat. It took a little bit to figure out exactly how to get everything to work out, but it was quite satisfying. It looks like you can access the secret room from here without having solved the exit room (1E)(which is where I suspect you're actually supposed to be able to access the secret room from.) Honestly I think this is a more interesting way to access it, but it leaves you stuck if you haven't cleared 1E. Maybe placing a raft somewhere in another corner room (like 1N1W) would prevent this.

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09-29-2018 at 08:44 PM
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jokokoe
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I sent a message to Bent to know how should we proceed, I hope I'll have an answer soon !



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10-01-2018 at 09:23 PM
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Bent
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To Insoluble:
Thanks for testing the level! Iíve made some changes in response to your feedback and demos that will be implemented in the upcoming version of the level. Some comments:
The Entrance: Yeah, I know. Thereís actually a challenge scroll in this room asking the player to make the snake eat the citizen, and the solution is to use this technique. I donít mind the free high score too much, as I donít think very much optimization is possible in this room to begin with.
1N: Your solution was completely unintentional. The room will be fixed in the upcoming version of the level.
1N1W: Iíve implemented your suggestion for this room.
1N1E: I agree that your way of accessing the secret(s) is both more interesting and clever. In the new version of the level this will be the only way to move onto the body of the snake, and Iíve also added a platform to prevent getting stuck.
1S: While the direction you enter 1S from may not change the solution to the room, I think it does change your perception of 1S if you visit either 1S1E or 1S1W before solving it, and hereís why: Both 1S1E or 1S1W are identical to the last block in 1S, but with things added to them to make them easier (= solvable). Realizing this causes you to ask the questions like: If one has to use a mirror to solve 1S1E, how are you supposed to solve the last block of 1S without one? And this basically gives away the solution to 1S. I think the green doors are a necessarily evil to prevent this.
1S1E: Hereís some hints on how to solve the room:
Click here to view the secret text

To Joko:
Attached to this post is the new version of Adders and Brains. In addition to implementing some of Insolubles suggestions, Iíve made some aesthetic improvements and added a new secret room. So much of the level has been changed (including changes to the entrance room) that I think it would be best if you delete the old version of the level from your hold and copy over the new one, rather than trying to replace each room manually. Even though this may break some demos, itís definitely less error-prone. Iíve played through the level in full to make sure that the new changes does not break anything.

Also, when the time comes to upload Architecture Salon to the HAs, feel free to PM me if you need victory demos for any of the rooms Iíve contributed to your hold.

[Last edited by Bent at 10-04-2018 07:54 PM]
10-04-2018 at 07:37 PM
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Based on the version downloaded 9/28, I think all the issues I mentioned have been addressed, except maybe:

The Swampy Lake 1W - Since I'm trying to care about CaravelNet highscores, I can't say I like this change.

The Yard 1W - This room is set up as if you're expected to bridge everything across the gap between the islands. That might be the fastest way to do it, but surely it's easier to make bridges that go from an island to the land surrounding the islands (though there's a lack of checkpoints if you go that way).

Colorful Cavern 1S1E - I think the room is okay as it is, but note:
Click here to view the secret text

Other minor things:

The Salon 1N5E - The dialog "that x roaches been at least ate in..." is really awkward. Suggest "feed the adder at least x roaches in...".

The Director's House - Intro text misspells "future".

10-05-2018 at 05:47 PM
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I've looked at (though often not solved) most of the rooms in this hold, except for The Eye, and Impact Crater -- and I haven't given much attention to Small Sands, and Adders and Brains.

Unprotected 1S1E - Trivially solved - You can make the mimic sworded by placing it somewhere behind you, and having it follow you into the room.

Painting 1N1W, 2N1E - I guess the scripting is not working. I get "approved" just by filling the whole area with tar.

Painting 1N2W, 2N1W - I'm not convinced these rooms are solvable. Which is fine. Just make sure they are.

10-06-2018 at 05:20 PM
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BoyBlue,

Could you please explain me the problem with the conquer token / Caravel highscores for The Swampy Lake 1W and send me the demos for Painting 1N1W & 2N1E ?



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10-16-2018 at 01:14 PM
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The issue with a conquer token and scoring is generally the fact that the score for a room with a c-token in it is awarded based on what turn the player activates the token. So if you put the puzzle "after" a conquer token, the room becomes trivial to get the "best score" in since anyone can just hit the token as quickly as possible and then take as long as they like to beat the "real room" afterward, and then get awarded that high score.

Therefore, to avoid that, it's usually considered best to put any conquer tokens "at the end" of whatever the relevant puzzle is.

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10-16-2018 at 02:43 PM
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Thank you for the reply ! The room has been modified, I'll update the hold when I'll have completed a few more things.

Bent,

I was curious to know if it was possible to use the ashes of a fegundo as an obstacle for an adder to turn at the right place (then go to an oremite corridor to eat the brain). I am really terrible when it comes to snake manipulation. I designed a small room and I don't know if it is solvable or not, but if it is, I think it could fit well in the level Adders And Brains (maybe as an other secret room ?).
You can download the room in the link if you want to take a look at it.

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10-16-2018 at 04:49 PM
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quote:
jokokoe wrote:
Could you please [...] send me the demos for Painting 1N1W & 2N1E ?


Demos attached.
10-16-2018 at 07:10 PM
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Some news.

Adder And Brains has correctly been replaced by its new version.

The Swampy Lake 1W : Conquer token has been replaced by a monster and a firetrap. It should be ok now.

Colorful Cavern 1S1E : the pp is closer to the entrance and now open two doors, one for the stick and one with the gentryii.

Unprotected 1S1E : Added two doors so the player needs to place the mimic inside the middle area.

The Yard 1W : Added some walls all around the water area.

Beethro Learns Painting 1N1W, 2N1E : I think the scripting works correctly now.
1N2W : Removed one of the force arrow, now the tar babies correctly find the player.
2N1W : The south pp has been divided by two, the room is now conquerable.

There is a new room (3N1W) in Rocky Archipelago and 3 new rooms (2 + 1 secret) in Fegundo Training Area (Also, added some hot tiles in 1N2W to prevent player from staying on the force arrow).

I was working on another small project called "The Ungazing Aumtlich" but I think it will fit better in this Hold, as a secret level. It is not finished yet but playable (still need to design 4 or 5 rooms).

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10-19-2018 at 06:58 PM
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Minor fix in Fegundo Training Area 2S2W, there was an adder and a token that were not supposed to be there, I removed them.

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10-20-2018 at 10:21 PM
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quote:
jokokoe wrote: I was curious to know if it was possible to use the ashes of a fegundo as an obstacle for an adder to turn at the right place


Nice idea, but unfortunately it doesnít work. This is because adders can eat both fegundos and their ashes, and also brains do not consider fegundos or their ashes to be obstacles. So the adder treats the fegundo as if it wasnít there.
10-21-2018 at 07:22 PM
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BoyBlue
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Beethro Learns Painting 1N1W, 1N2W, 1N1E, probably others - If you trigger the script, then exit the room without clearing it (or clear it, then create a new tarstuff baby), then the room is unsolvable when you re-enter it. The character is not there.

Beethro Learns Painting 1N2W - You can satisfy the script by simply removing all the briar, and letting the tarstuff cover everything but the gel. There are also other ways to cheat, but I can't figure out the pattern.

The Yard 1W - There is a still a place at (22,9) where you can escape the island using only one tile of thin ice. This can be exploited to make the room somewhat easier. Without it, various escape-the-islands strategies are still possible, but in my opinion they don't really make the room easier.

Fegundo Training Area 1S1W - If you clear this room, then exit it to the west before clearing the next room (1S), you'll have to "solve" it again, because even when it's cleared, there's no other way to walk through it from west to east. Not a critical problem, just annoying.

Small Sands 1N - Is this solvable?

Holes 1S1W - Is this solvable?

10-24-2018 at 04:58 PM
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Bent
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quote:
BoyBlue wrote:
Small Sands 1N - Is this solvable?



Just replayed it to double check, and I can confirm that the room is fully solvable. :)
10-26-2018 at 09:55 PM
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Bent
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Joko, thereís one more thing Iíd like to change in Adders and Brains: In 1E at 27,31 (in the snakeís tail) there is a force arrow that I just realized is no longer needed. Would you mind removing it for me?
10-26-2018 at 10:11 PM
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jokokoe
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Hello everyone ! I've been busy this past few weeks but I'm back.

The arrow has been removed in Adders and Brains 1E .

For BoyBlue :

In Beethro Learns Painting 1N2W, the script should be working fine now. I've also modified all the scripts of all rooms, now even if you leave without properly solving the room, the character and the script should be still working.

I've added walls in The Yard 1W there is no way the player can escape the island now.

Fegundo Training Area 1S1W : added a tunnel.

Holes 1S1W : I've played it again and I can confirm, it is solvable. Did you see the platform at (21,4) ?

The last secret level The Ungazing Aumtlich is also complete. There is a small story, but I'm really bad in grammary, feel free to tell me if I should change the sentences.

The construction and design part of the hold is now over, I will no more design rooms for it. I'll keep play testing the entire hold to see if something is broken.

____________________________
My First Hold :

Do it Again
12-12-2018 at 11:29 PM
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