Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Yeah... 1.0.56 seems to have all kinds of problems. When I switch between characters I get an error beep every time I move as a tar baby. That being said I think you ought to explain better how things works. Like the fact that you can only switch roles once in every room.

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

The actual code is:

Start at role = 0. The wait 999 is the reason to why you can't change characters two times in the same room (probably there will be a better solution)
If you are a slayer (role = 0) your items are saved in slayerweapon, slayerarmor and slayeraccesory, then, you are tar baby and _Sword, _Shield and _Accessory it's the items the tar have: tarweapon, tarshield and taraccessory.
If you are a tar baby (role = 1) will do exactly the opposite.
The variables of the slayer (slayerweapon/armor...) are assigned at the end of the level 14 (in the autosave character). The variables of the tar baby are assigned whenever you enter in the room.

The block
"if ...
wait until var Tarshield = 20087
Player role Gel baby
if end"
it's because I used an armor called "green skin" and want that the tar baby turn into Gel baby if the armor is acquired.

The new code would be something like:

-assign empty shield/accesory in the room of the level 22.(or before...)

Adding the black code it's a solution I found and would work.
I hope the text is understandable.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Just got done playing through levels 7 and 8.

Level 7 is indeed a lot more open-ended than the previous levels - it's important to set ATK goals and classify the monsters so you fight the easier ones first, or the ones that can't be reduced in damage quickly, and then later ones that have just become easier.

However, I don't really know why the boss is an Icewing. The statistics (ATK and DEF) are fine for that level, but I think its appearance and character type should be changed to something else (disarmed mimic, spider, mud baby, possibly some other type/name/color of wraithwing). This is for a couple of reasons: first, the Icewing boss has less DEF than a normal Icewing, and second, the Icewing boss's attack isn't defense-piercing like a normal Icewing's is. Thus I think it should belong to a different "monster class" than the Icewing.

Level 8 was also pretty fun. It's possible to skip a lot of this level since you only need 160 ATK for the tar mothers, but obviously you want all the ATK on the level, and solving the mimic puzzles in particular is a good way to get more health. I think the mimic puzzles are a good difficulty: not completely automatic, but not frustratingly hard execution-wise either. I also like that the Teal Baby's ATK checkpoint is reached when the player collects about half of the ATK in the level.

EDIT:

For Level 9 1N, I think it might be better if you make the pressure plate at (14, 13) an orb that opens the same doors, so it's more obvious that the player can just hit it to "solve" the puzzle and they don't need to put a mirror there to "hold open" the doors. It would just make the room a bit easier to observe and intuitively understand when first entered.

If you want to give players the option to skip level 9's puzzles, you should have the tunnel involve fighting two or three tar babies. Right now, solving 1S1W involves killing four tar babies (or at least I wasn't able to kill any fewer), and then getting 500 HP back, for a net damage of 300 HP (1 1/2 tar babies). As it is, players will just solve rooms 1N, 2E, and 2S1E for the net health upgrade, then use the tunnel to avoid having to take damage in 1S1W.

EDIT:

With regards to Level 11's Flower Birds and Demon Eyes, I think it might help visibility matters if they displayed an animation (for example, the "shaking" of the Game Effect Jitter, or the Steam or Strong Hit game effects would be good too). That way, when the player kills the first monster in The Entrance, and the Flower Bird is visibly affected, they know that monster has reacted to the player killing that monster.

This could be further reinforced by an explanatory message in The Entrance and 1N1W, indicating that Flower Birds gain attack when the player kills a monster, and Demon Eyes lose attack (and defense!) when the player kills a monster.

Finally, the Flower Bird (boss) should probably be a different color to helpfully indicate it's a boss.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-04-2014 04:00 AM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Not even when I get the Fang in level 25 does my stats increase

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Chaco wrote:

For Level 9 1N, I think it might be better if you make the pressure plate at (14, 13) an orb that opens the same doors, so it's more obvious that the player can just hit it to "solve" the puzzle and they don't need to put a mirror there to "hold open" the doors. It would just make the room a bit easier to observe and intuitively understand when first entered.

If you want to give players the option to skip level 9's puzzles, you should have the tunnel involve fighting two or three tar babies. Right now, solving 1S1W involves killing four tar babies (or at least I wasn't able to kill any fewer), and then getting 500 HP back, for a net damage of 300 HP (1 1/2 tar babies). As it is, players will just solve rooms 1N, 2E, and 2S1E for the net health upgrade, then use the tunnel to avoid having to take damage in 1S1W.

I did some changes, to enter in the tunnel is needed deactivate the plate in the tar room. and changed the last plates by buttons.

EDIT:

Chaco wrote:

With regards to Level 11's Flower Birds and Demon Eyes, I think it might help visibility matters if they displayed an animation (for example, the "shaking" of the Game Effect Jitter, or the Steam or Strong Hit game effects would be good too). That way, when the player kills the first monster in The Entrance, and the Flower Bird is visibly affected, they know that monster has reacted to the player killing that monster.

This could be further reinforced by an explanatory message in The Entrance and 1N1W, indicating that Flower Birds gain attack when the player kills a monster, and Demon Eyes lose attack (and defense!) when the player kills a monster.

Finally, the Flower Bird (boss) should probably be a different color to helpfully indicate it's a boss.

I need some help with the game effects. I tried with

stats...
_MyScriptX = -9999
_MyScriptX = -9999
_MyX = _X
_MyY = _Y
label power
wait for event monster stabbed
game effect swirl at (0.0)
set var _ATK +45
wait 0
go to power

But need to kill two monsters (after the first one) so the flower bird gain ATK again. Maybe I did something wrong.

Blondbeard wrote:
Not even when I get the Fang in level 25 does my stats increase

I'm solving this problem. I will add a question about the version of the game in level 22 when you get the command and assign another version of the command (without images unless someone discover a better solution) that work correctly.

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[Last edited by komachi at 11-05-2014 10:15 AM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

komachi wrote:

I need some help with the game effects. I tried with

stats...
_MyScriptX = -9999
_MyScriptX = -9999
_MyX = _X
_MyY = _Y
label power
wait for event monster stabbed
game effect swirl at (0.0)
set var _ATK +45
wait 0
go to power

But need to kill two monsters (after the first one) so the flower bird gain ATK again. Maybe I did something wrong.

After the Game Effect Swirl, you need to reset the MyScriptX and MyScriptY to -9999. Without that, your Wait 0 line will override the 0 amount with the MyScriptX value.

EDIT:

In Level 12 2S1E, I'm not sure if the player is supposed to be able to get the +3 ATK at (14, 7) by locking the greckle gate and door-walking over to it. If that's not intended, a simple fix would be to put a west-facing force arrow on that greckle gate.

Also, I think the Warchief goblins should have a different color just so it's easier to tell the difference between them and the Weak Goblins at a glance (especially when viewing other rooms on the minimap).

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

---

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-05-2014 05:56 PM]

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Ok, I'm going to upload a new version.

In level 22 4N 2W, a question it will ask your version of the hold. The charswitch should work fine in the 1.2.0.56, but you cannot see the images.
To explain a bit what I've done:

-Changed the level 9. You need to complete the puzzles to get the items and need to deactivate the pressure plate in tar room to access to the tunnel.
-Changed icewing/flower bird bosses names.
-Also, there is a part of the last level done. But isn't fully tested.

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[Last edited by komachi at 11-05-2014 06:35 PM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I like the orbs in level 9, but the black door that allows you to exit through the left in 1N once you've completed the room and hit the pressure plate to the south isn't connected to the orb like the plate there once was.

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[Last edited by Gordius at 11-06-2014 12:00 AM]

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Because you can use a mirror to open the path.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

It looks like the only mirror I could do that with is the one on the second plate from the top. Which I pushed into the upper slot and is now inaccessible. And since I've left the room on the right and come back, I can't undo except to go back and save. I liked the old way where finishing the puzzle meant an easy exit, but if you want to keep this aspect, I would make the upper half of that plate regular floor. As it is, it's just a mean trick.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Finally got through the bonus level. It's a lot of fun, but if it's just for bragging rights, it seems like a lot of work.

Level 17 seems much harder than 18 or 19 to me. In some old version, I used to be able to clear out the top half before I went on to the bottom half. Now I can only get about half the gems at all. But even after that kind of poor showing, cleaning out 18 is a breeze and 19 (except maybe the fairy) as well. Also, Level 17 text says "everyone hates hot tiles, except goo", which led me to believe that the hot tiles would act differently for the tar baby, but it doesn't, that I can see.

Level 20 is another mean trick. I don't see any way to avoid getting hit by the flamethrower once, since I'm walking the shortest possible path. So you have to finish level 19 with 1075 HP left over. Maybe reward players who can get in and out of the dead end path without getting hit with enough health to get them through this (or a way to disable the flamethrower).

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[Last edited by Gordius at 11-08-2014 06:50 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Some more comments about the hold:

Level 9: I agree with Gordius; you should definitely reduce the size of that pressure plate, or make floor beside it so that the mirror is retrievable from either tile, because as it is now it's a trap for the non-wary player.

Level 13: In general, I think this level is too dark - you could make it only slightly dark, and still get the atmospheric effect fine. Rooms like 1S2E, 1N2E and 2N2E could keep their current darkness levels, since it's relatively easy to see the room features in there, but it's hard to interpret 1S1W, 1S, 1S1E and 1E when it's hard to discern the room edges and floors.

Lair: Just for reference, I started the Lair with these statistics:

HP: 3622
ATK: 369
DEF: 80
GR: 7454
REP: 14774
Keys: 18/10/0/0

I personally really like the idea of the Lair level, where suddenly there's this big bonus level, and since it's the "last level" you're encouraged to spend all those keys you've been hording up to this point.

Lair 3E: I think the Earth Elementals are a bit too weak - you start the level with 80 DEF, meaning you only need 5 +4 DEF gems to render them completely harmless. It isn't hard to get past 375 ATK in order to scratch damage them. I think they could afford to have maybe 115 to 120 ATK? That way they still do considerable damage if you try to beeline directly to the shield from the start of the level, but it's still possible to render them harmless if enough DEF is gathered from the outskirts of the level.

Considering how difficult the Dark Elementals are for the Dark Sword, I expect the Earth Elementals to be at least somewhat tough, if not necessarily as difficult.

Lair 2N5W: The choice here is to either spend 2 green keys to open the passageway, or kill a single Yellow Baby to open that same passageway. By the time the player makes it here, they should have more than 395 ATK, which means that the Yellow Baby does only 140 damage - essentially making this a non-decision, as it's always better to just kill the baby and get 800 HP, which is plenty of profit.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

---

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-08-2014 05:45 PM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I don't know if this is your charswitch changes or something else, but the wall blocking the lower lazer beam in 22:4N2W never disappears. Is it waiting for me to achieve something or is it just a bug? I'm in v57, so it seems likely that it's a problem there.

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Gordius wrote:
I don't know if this is your charswitch changes or something else, but the wall blocking the lower lazer beam in 22:4N2W never disappears. Is it waiting for me to achieve something or is it just a bug? I'm in v57, so it seems likely that it's a problem there.

Yes, it's a bug, the wall shouldn't be there, sorry i've just fix it.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

In 25:1S2E, the swordsman still activates the bomb with his sword. I don't see any way to get to him without passing through a place where he'll destroy himself and all the loot.

Also, players using 1.2.0.57 should select the 1.1.0.54 (or whatever the lowest version option is) at the char select version question. Both seem to apply the right stats, but selecting 1.2.0.56 gives "empty slot" pictures for the skin and tooth.

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

Okay, so I noticed a few problems:
Level 27: 4S1E and 3S2W have issues with briar growing before you could possibly get to the items - A City guardian kills something before you have a chance. 3S2E can't be accessed at all because of this.
Also, there's a SLIGHT bug in Level 26 2S1E - it doesn't reset your health to that number, it adds to it. I had 12662784 health going into level 27.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Interesting. The newest version solved the problems with the City Guardsmen killing other monsters for me in 1.2.0.57. It's only a problem if they hit bombs now. Are you using a different version of the game, SE, or an old version of the hold?

Also, I noticed that floor 29 (and probably the earlier floors with accessories) will allow you to replace a gel's fang with the accessory, instead of forcing it onto the slayer. This might be intentional, but I can't think of a situation in which it would be desirable.

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

Hm. Perhaps I don't have the latest version... Took me a while to get through it

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Hi.
After several months of testing and building I made the last level.
Obviously I was busy or out of inspiration many time after I made the bonus level but I promised to end this hold.

The last level it's 3 in 1 however you only can chose one way.
It's possible reach the final boss and conquer the hold (I think isn't too hard).

I made some "custom" battles to make the battles a bit different, hope you like them!.

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[Last edited by komachi at 01-10-2016 01:50 AM]

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2844
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

Thought I'd give this a shot. Will post my score checkpoints as I reach them, and will probably give further feedback when finished:

First part conquered!
HP: 264
ATK: 69
DEF: 10
Keys: 4/0/0/0
Score = 421

Out of the prison!
HP: 2280
ATK: 145
DEF: 40
Keys: 10/6/0/0
Score = 1122

Will stop at level 8 for now. The hold really picks up and gets much better from level 6 onwards. Levels 6 and 7 were great. The first 5 levels, not so much, they were largely linear and lacking in choices. In particular the first two levels feel a bit pointless, especially level 1 which is just a bunch of empty corridors, I also thought it was a shame I could break the secret walls to get to the room border behind the rocks but there was nothing there.

EDIT: More:

Tar mother removed!
HP: 940
ATK: 171
DEF: 40
Keys: 16/10/0/0
Score = 1358

Blue door dropped!
HP: 1525
ATK: 199
DEF: 40
Keys: 12/10/0/0
Score = 1473

Level 10 was great! Level 9 is the sort of level that's really annoying if you're an optimiser because every time you have to replay the hold you have to go through the motions of solving the same puzzles again and again. This sort of thing is best left to regular DROD.

Boss 1 defeated
HP: 1310
ATK: 225
DEF: 80
Keys: 15/12/0/0
Score = 1787

In level 11 I didn't pick up any attack gems in 1W because the damage I would have taken was enormous. Maybe we'll see what consequences this has later.

---

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 01-10-2016 05:40 PM]

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Sorry, I upload again a version which don't have a strange script which it say "hello" and a number everytime you kill something, also I notice a gobkin king in the entrance of level 18 which I removed.

Thanks for playing it Kieranmillar.
Yes, the first levels are very simple but I like to keep them like a warmup.
I had the idea of using that room of the 1st level to make a stairs to the level 14 and skip almost all the first part of the hold but I need to rethink how do it.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Unfortunately, it looks like DROD RPG version 1.2.1.59 breaks the coding for swapping between the Slayer and the Tar Baby. I tried answering both versions offered (1.54 and 1.56, I think), and neither seems to allow me to change away from the Slayer.

Up to that point, the major change I see is the addition of the plate to turn off the flamethrower, which I love. In a more convoluted hold, I'd want something to tell me what was over there, but even resetting to the last Autosave in this hold means repeating only a couple of rooms, if I take the lower path first and then see the plate and think "I wonder what that is" (which I did this time).

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

I think the problem is "Each use" because it don't anything.
I only added the last level and removed weird things in the last version. I'm building in the 1.2.3.98 version which the old charswitch work fine.
The next update (which I'm working) have lots of changes but almost all of them are of level 27-28 and changed end-hold monsters.
I still need to know that the last level is solvable before upload it, or I can upload it if anyone want it.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Okay, I got that working with the new updater, though I would recommend changing the poll to ask what your version is to include a + or something.

Now, in level 25, City Guardians are no longer a killable monster. I guess they're marked as NPCs or something? They do damage to me with their swords, but I can just keep bumping into them or hitting them with my hook until I run out of HP. They don't show up at all when I get the stats for monsters in the room.

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

I knew it (because it's one of the fixes) the reason is because they had "imperative safe".
I'll upload the new version, it's possible reach the last level but I can't assure that is possible conquer the hold.

In level 1, I've added a room for the credits and one at 1N which the stairs go to level 14.
Hold is being made in 1.2.3.98. The patch can be found here:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=40568

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I like the new room in Level 14. My only quibble is that, because of the lighting, the door looks like a black door (and maybe is a black door), but it appears not to drop until you've killed all the tar babies, not just eliminated all the tar. I think that's a fine puzzle, and really enjoyed it, but there should be a note at the entrance to the room explaining that.

In the Lair, your "can't pass without three treasures" coding isn't working. I was able to walk directly to the skeleton key. It isn't preventing me from progressing; I'll still try to finish off the level properly. But you might want to check it.

Also--and this has always been true, but it's much more obvious with the new visual effects on Flower and Demon monsters--is it intentional that you can bypass some of the increase to Flower monsters (and decrease to Demon monsters, but why would you) by killing things on multiple straight turns? If you kill two monsters in a row without any space in-between, the Flower and Demon code will only activate once. It seems like I sometimes get away with this with three monsters, but not always. I haven't tried to assess the effect of killing one monster with my hook at the same time that others run into me (like the places where you've surrounded a Flower Bird with Weak Goblins), but I suspect I could eliminate many monsters with only one increment to the Flower.

If this is intentional, I'm of two minds about whether you should tell people this in the note explaining the monsters. But if it isn't intentional, I wanted to let you know.

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 163
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

Gordius wrote:
I like the new room in Level 14. My only quibble is that, because of the lighting, the door looks like a black door (and maybe is a black door), but it appears not to drop until you've killed all the tar babies, not just eliminated all the tar. I think that's a fine puzzle, and really enjoyed it, but there should be a note at the entrance to the room explaining that.

It's a simple black door, it should open when you clean all the tar (you don't need to kill the babies).

Gordius wrote:
In the Lair, your "can't pass without three treasures" coding isn't working. I was able to walk directly to the skeleton key. It isn't preventing me from progressing; I'll still try to finish off the level properly. But you might want to check it.

It should be a character but it have none as graphic, that's the reason nothing is showed or avoiding you to getting the skeleton key, solved.

Gordius wrote:
Also--and this has always been true, but it's much more obvious with the new visual effects on Flower and Demon monsters--is it intentional that you can bypass some of the increase to Flower monsters (and decrease to Demon monsters, but why would you) by killing things on multiple straight turns? If you kill two monsters in a row without any space in-between, the Flower and Demon code will only activate once. It seems like I sometimes get away with this with three monsters, but not always. I haven't tried to assess the effect of killing one monster with my hook at the same time that others run into me (like the places where you've surrounded a Flower Bird with Weak Goblins), but I suspect I could eliminate many monsters with only one increment to the Flower.

If this is intentional, I'm of two minds about whether you should tell people this in the note explaining the monsters. But if it isn't intentional, I wanted to let you know.

It's intentional, it activated once if you kill monsters in two turns in a row.
I edited the scroll in the entrance of level 11 writing this.

Thanks for the feedback!.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

To be clear, there was never a character in the room telling me I needed three treasures to pass or standing in my way, just the hovering text saying I needed them. I was able to walk straight there and pick up the skeleton key before I had collected any of the blue keys. Aside from that, the Lair is a lot of fun, although it gets much easier as soon as you get the first treasure.

With regards to the black door in level 14, it must have been something with the lighting effects that made it look like it was still shut and didn't open until I killed all the babies.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Finished via the grappling hook. You explain it in the end note, but having the final boss pummel me with no clear reason why was frustrating.

If you're willing to leave the Fang behind, the baby can pick up one of the items as well as the slayer. It's rarely useful to swap between them, and locking the other paths prevents you from mining more than one, but you might want to adjust the hold to prevent it entirely.

I ended with 60% secrets. Is there a hidden room in each quadrant? Because that will make getting 100% impossible.

I'll try the water quadrant next.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Yeah, all these bosses that have atypical fight behaviors that you aren't told about are more annoying than interesting. I can't plan for a challenge I'm not expecting, so either I survive the surprise extra 1400 damage the Water Lord does at the end, or I lose a fight I expected to win, back up, and try again with more health.

If you want to use mechanisms that you've already implemented to develop an interesting boss fight, try spawning weak monsters that chase you (you have several throughout the hold, exhibiting different behaviors; I think the Machine-type AI would be most interesting) between you and a Flower Boss. Now the challenge is to kill as few of the minions as possible on the path to the boss, so as to keep its stats as low as possible.