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Tim
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While talking with Banjooie about "creative and innovative", he said that it is possible to have creative and/or innovative output coming from big business. And I said that it's not very likely.

So, what are your memorable (good or bad) innovations of the gaming industry from the last, say, 10 years?

*) Some of them straight from my head, as examples:

* stylus/touch screens
* pointer gaming
* DRM
* DLC / Microtransactions


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08-08-2011 at 11:41 AM
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lakibuk
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Interesting that your examples are all hardware and distribution-related.
Here my things:
- autogenerating health (GOOD): your health automatically restores like you see in most of the modern shooter games (Uncharted, CoD,...)
- online game trophies (GOOD): like the ones in PSN
- bullet time (GOOD): probably older than 10 years but still fun
- cutscenes made with in-game graphics engine (GOOD): vs. pre-rendered videos
- context-sensitive actions (BAD): dunno the correct term. but the stuff where the game tells you which button to press. lame.
- music games
- casual games (GOOD): games for 35+ women, non-traditional gamers
- free to play browser games

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08-08-2011 at 12:33 PM
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coppro
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The Wii and DS were both quite innovative and creative. Both involved a weird departure from the norm, that was risky and sudden. Neither was truly new (nothing ever is), but both were a significant recombination of technology. I won't say the same for the 3DS as it was really just an extension of the existing DS.
08-08-2011 at 01:01 PM
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west.logan
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Tim wrote:
While talking with Banjooie about "creative and innovative", he said that it is possible to have creative and/or innovative output coming from big business. And I said that it's not very likely.

I was going to mention the DS and the Wii as being "risky" as well. Another might be the iPad (analysts laughed at it). How about Google's automated car? Going back further, look at Bell Labs, those guys were absolutely brilliant, but they had the resources to be so.

Regardless, little guys are often associated with being innovative because that's the only competitive edge they have to compete with the big guys. But they lack something the big guys have: capital.



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08-08-2011 at 01:11 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Big enough companies can do it - it just isn't going to be all they do.

They can put some of their money into solid, dependable things - that can provide them with some guaranteed income - and then they also have some freedom to fund some riskier products.
If the risky thing works, awesome!
If not, then it's going to destroy the company.

Big companies have the resources to make an innovation the best it can be. They just have to be able to show some restraint and not market-test it into genericville. They have to give it the freedom to fail.

--

Nintento is the example I was going to use as well. They're a big company and they're always trying crazy stuff. Let's not forget that this is the second time they've tried a 3D console.

Mirror's Edge was innovative and it was made by an EA owned developer.

Portal is innovative. Would it have been as big as it was if Valve hadn't nabbed the developers of Narbacular Drop?

Does Xbox Live count as innovative?
08-08-2011 at 01:42 PM
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Briareos
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lakibuk wrote:
- context-sensitive actions (BAD): dunno the correct term. but the stuff where the game tells you which button to press. lame.
The term you're looking for is Quick Time Event...

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08-08-2011 at 02:04 PM
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lakibuk
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Briareos wrote:
lakibuk wrote:
- context-sensitive actions (BAD): dunno the correct term. but the stuff where the game tells you which button to press. lame.
The term you're looking for is Quick Time Event...
Exactly! And i can understand the resentment in this cartoon.

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08-08-2011 at 02:35 PM
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Tim
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lakibuk wrote:
Interesting that your examples are all hardware and distribution-related.
I don't know many software examples.

But perhaps these:
- "physics" games
- match 3
- tower defense
- spot the difference
- hidden items

Although many of those are more attributed to small companies.

Rabscuttle wrote:
If the risky thing works, awesome!
If not, then it's going to destroy the company.
You are very right here. The problem is that if your target audience is really large, larger companies think they can't afford any risk.

Look at most of the modern AAA-games. They are all FPS, Sports or Driving. What is the innovation there? (I dont know, I don't play FPS or "Sport" games.)

Nintendo [...], and Mirror's Edge was innovative and it was made by an EA owned developer.
Weren't those more like exceptions rather than the rule?

Portal is innovative. Would it have been as big as it was if Valve hadn't nabbed the developers of Narbacular Drop?
Is Valve a big company?

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08-08-2011 at 03:06 PM
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Snacko
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Valve is a very big company.

As for innovations, digital distribution is changing things for the better in ways people don't seem to realize. Indie games now have much more of a chance to be popular and even console games aren't required to all be the major 3D blockbusters they would have to be to survive in the retail market.

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08-08-2011 at 03:54 PM
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west.logan
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Originally Banjooie was saying:

Banjooie wrote:
Are you really honestly insisting that big business cannot make a creative or innovative product? Please tell me you're just being hipster at me.

And you were saying:

Tim wrote:
But I find it hard to name any item that's made by big companies that is innovative or creative, because it's, by definition, risky.

Are you now just saying it's uncommon? Well, yeah. Big companies aren't the norm (otherwise they wouldn't be called "big"). Big companies will often produce what they are good at and what they think will sell. They have the capital to do so (a point I brought up earlier).

And as I said before, little companies are associated with being innovative because that is the only thing they can do to compete with big companies. It doesn't necessarily mean they are better at it or that big companies don't do it.


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08-08-2011 at 03:59 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Rabscuttle wrote:
If the risky thing works, awesome!
If not, then it's going to destroy the company.

whoops, I left out an important "not" there.

ahem...
If the risky thing fails, it's not going to destroy the company.
[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 08-09-2011 04:40 AM]
08-09-2011 at 04:39 AM
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Banjooie
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Weren't those more like exceptions rather than the rule?
Is Valve a big company?

oh i get the trick to this thread

every time we come up with an example, Tim has two options:

'Exception to the rule'
'Not a big enough company to count'

And meanwhile, keep pointing out that big companies /also/ release non-innovative products to bolster his point, much in the same way that selling a lot of lemonade at a lemonade stand means you don't also sell the occasional strawberry daiquiri, or anything but lemonade, ever.

i like it >:o] hOnK
08-09-2011 at 06:45 AM
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Rabscuttle
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1923-Innovation

This is relevant to this discussion.
[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 08-09-2011 09:05 AM]
08-09-2011 at 09:04 AM
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Tim
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Banjooie wrote:
every time we come up with an example, Tim has two options:

'Exception to the rule'
'Not a big enough company to count'

And meanwhile, keep pointing out that big companies /also/ release non-innovative products to bolster his point, much in the same way that selling a lot of lemonade at a lemonade stand means you don't also sell the occasional strawberry daiquiri, or anything but lemonade, ever.
Yeah, every time I make a successful point, you just avoid answering it by pointing at me instead.

Instead of proving me that Valve is not a indie company (well, they publish their own games), you blame me to "prove" your point.

Instead of giving examples other than Nintendo (which I already agree is innovative), you just hammer on that the rest of the big games industry is innovating by blaming me.

I like it too :thumbsup

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08-09-2011 at 10:56 AM
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Banjooie
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Well, your statement was that 'big companies do not produce innovation'.

You received counter-examples to your statement. Is there an arbitrary number of counter-examples you are going to need to believe your statement no longer applies?

Valve has put out 'AAA' hits. They make a lot of money, they have published games for smaller contractors: See Gearbox, Opposing Force.

Unless your definition of 'not indie' isn't 'not innovative', I'm not jumping through these flaming hoops.
[Last edited by Banjooie at 08-09-2011 11:06 AM]
08-09-2011 at 11:04 AM
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Snacko
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Just noticed that Atlus has not been mentioned in this topic.

So yeah...Atlus. Them too. Between Catherine, Demon's Souls and Shin Megami Tensei it's tough to find a release that isn't a risky one. I guess the Persona series is a tad prone to remakes and rereleases (Persona 1-3 (well, the first half of Persona 2) have both received PSP remakes, additionally Persona 3 had been remade once before and has received a sequel that plays basically the same), but otherwise they've been constant innovators. Even their big-seller (in Japan) Shin Megami Tensei has fundamentally changed the way it approached its alignment and negotiation systems each game.

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08-09-2011 at 12:23 PM
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west.logan
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Tim wrote:
Yeah, every time I make a successful point, you just avoid answering it by pointing at me instead.

What points are those? It started out as what I thought was a conversation about big companies vs. little companies, then you narrowed the field to gaming innovations. I think enough counter-examples have been provided but I haven't seen backup for your claims yet.

It does seem that definitions have been shifting here...just my $0.02.

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08-09-2011 at 06:49 PM
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Jatopian
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These goalposts are like 3 football fields apart and widening.

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08-10-2011 at 01:10 AM
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Banjooie
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in my dream i am the poster.
its me

and THEN the big tim comes
for a little one on one

but it turns out to be CRAZY what kind of goalpost moves this guy has

im teling you... air like that is is UNREAL, it dosen't even HAPPEN
most of the time

the forum is on FIRE

jatopian come get the ruler
check this out
08-10-2011 at 04:24 AM
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Rabscuttle
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So I was searching for 'innovation in games' and I eventually got to the wikipedia page for Maxis studios and I found the following paragraph about the Maxis and EA logos on the packaging for the varions Sims games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxis#Acquisition_by_EA
Electronic Arts (EA) completed its acquisition of Maxis on July 28, 1997. Compared to other companies acquired by EA, such as Origin Systems and Westwood Studios, the absorption of Maxis has taken a slower pace, and the company has retained some of its original staff. The first prints of The Sims featured Maxis' logo prominently on the front, sides, and back of the box cover. Electronic Arts' logo, in contrast, was much smaller relatively, and was only visible on the back of the box. After the series proved to be a surprise success, Electronic Arts slowly replaced Maxis' logos with its own logo. This was first seen with The Sims: Livin' Large, where Maxis' logo was resized with a much more prominent Electronic Arts logo placed at the bottom center of the box cover. All releases from 2001 to 2003 bore the logos of both Electronic Arts and Maxis on the front and back of box covers. With the release of The Sims 2 in 2004, Maxis' logo was only displayed at the back of the box as well as the title screen at the launch of the game. The Sims 2: Pets, which was released in 2006, omitted Maxis' logo from the game's launch screen though the logo persisted at the back of the box. From The Sims 2: Seasons onwards, Maxis' logo is completely omitted from both the box and launch screens. Up until The Sims 2: FreeTime, the logo of Maxis was used for a button in the Options panel of the game to display the credits. In FreeTime, the Maxis logo was replaced by a symbol of the Sims plumbob. This was to signify the completion of all development responsibility transferrals from Maxis to the then newly created division, The Sims Studio, by Electronic Arts.

This is only really tangentially related to the topic, but I found it amusing.
Person who went through their Sims boxes and documented this, I salute you!
08-11-2011 at 03:50 AM
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NiroZ
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Tim wrote:
While talking with Banjooie about "creative and innovative", he said that it is possible to have creative and/or innovative output coming from big business. And I said that it's not very likely.
Just to pile on with everybody else, they're not contradictory statements.

Unless of course, you're trying to nut out the exact probability that a big company (yet to be defined) would create something innovative. In which case... good luck.
08-11-2011 at 08:04 AM
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Banjooie
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wait

wait wait wait wait

wait

wait

>> tim
>> proclaiming the value of innovation and indie companies

oh my god this is an /elaborate Braid joke/.
08-14-2011 at 07:08 AM
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Snacko
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And so we get another mind-bending twist ending!

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08-15-2011 at 05:48 PM
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Syntax
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To answer the original post (and probably re-iterating the obvious and previous posts):
* Cryptic hybrid exploration in Captain Blood
* 2 player co-op fighiting in Double Dragon
* Near-perfect puzzle design in Lemmings (apart from level 119)
* Multiplayer 2D scroller shmup in Silk Worm IV
* Interface design in Monkey Island (and story of course)
* Pinball Dreams as a physics game precursor
* Polygon fluidity in Another World (with Flashback as a worthy follow up)
* Sheer genius of Chip's Challenge and Supaplex

I obviously have not adhered to the "last 10 years" restriction, but I don't feel many games have been as innovative since then except for Portal and more so, DROD.

Obviously, these are my personal opionions :)
08-23-2011 at 04:57 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Syntax wrote:
* Near-perfect puzzle design in Lemmings (apart from level 119)

Was that the second-last level? That required you to click on a lemming on the one-pixel walk between landing and falling. Plus no exploders so you had a 50% chance of building the wrong way out of the the two blockers at the start.
Man, I still remember that one about... sheesh 20 years later?

You best be sure when I fiiiinally go it, I wrote down the password for the next level in stone just so I would never have to play that one again.
(where I wrote it down is lost to the ages)
08-23-2011 at 08:19 AM
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da rogu3
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Personally I feel that big companies (the likes of EA and Activision) can be innovative, but nowhere near to the extent that indie game developers are.
08-26-2011 at 10:14 PM
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hyphz
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I find the timelines of these things can be interesting in themselves:

lakibuk wrote:
- bullet time (GOOD): probably older than 10 years but still fun

First appearance of deliberate Bullet Time is generally believed to be Postal 2, 2003.

- context-sensitive actions (BAD): dunno the correct term. but the stuff where the game tells you which button to press. lame.

For this you can thank Dragon's Lair - 1983. So this one is more than 20 years old!

- music games

Quest For Fame, 1995. So more than 10 years.

Oh, and on the issue of big/small companies, I think that's moot. What drives innovation are customers who're prepared to take risks and don't demand millions of dollars worth of graphics.
08-28-2011 at 12:50 AM
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Briareos
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hyphz wrote:
First appearance of deliberate Bullet Time is generally believed to be Postal 2, 2003.
Max Payne came out in 2001, and bullet time was one of the central features of that game...

np: FUSE - Theychx (Dimension Intrusion)

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08-28-2011 at 01:49 AM
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Rat Man
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I don't think anyone's brought up yet that there are probably millions of uncreative indie companies -- you just haven't heard of them for obvious reasons.

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08-31-2011 at 05:43 PM
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Jacob
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Rat Man wrote:
I don't think anyone's brought up yet that there are probably millions of uncreative indie companies -- you just haven't heard of them for obvious reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task
;)

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