Re: Perplexing Puzzles

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Blondbeard
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File: PP Moderate 1S1W Victory.demo (1.8 KB)
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Sure! Here's the demo!

I managed to solve 1S as well. Do you want a demo for that one as well? Like the rooms, by the way. 1E seems a bit too trial and errorish to me. Hard to go in with a plan when you have to mainipulate 3 serpents that exactly.

06-05-2011 at 01:35 PM

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Blondbeard
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Do I have to get the queen in here?

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 06-05-2011 02:28 PM]

06-05-2011 at 02:27 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Blondbeard wrote:
Sure! Here's the demo!

I missed that approach, mabye adding a few trapdoors at the entrance of the queen section will fix that.

I managed to solve 1S as well. Do you want a demo for that one as well?

Yes please

1E seems a bit too trial and errorish to me. Hard to go in with a plan when you have to mainipulate 3 serpents that exactly.

Serpents? I assume you mean 1W. If so,

Click here to view the secret text

Edit: As for 1E, you don't have to get the queen in the golem section. But you need to

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-05-2011 02:31 PM]

06-05-2011 at 02:30 PM

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Blondbeard
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File: PP Moderate 1S Victory.demo (1.5 KB)
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

1S:

06-05-2011 at 02:36 PM

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Blondbeard
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File: PP Moderate 1W Death.demo (1 KB)
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

So I'm not in an impossible situation in my pucture (I take it). Realy hard golem-section...

Demo so far for 1W:

06-05-2011 at 02:37 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Thanks for the demos, your solution for 1S is kinda similar to mine.

in 1E, to survive the golems,

Click here to view the secret text

I'll post a screenshot of 1W:

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-05-2011 03:05 PM]

06-05-2011 at 02:57 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (+1)

Allright, I've just finally completed "Moderate" level.

I can't say I really liked 1E. It is difficult overall, but I feel some parts could've been easier(this golem part, for instance - I spent ages on it!).

Also! Timer in 1W is beatable

(though it's pretty damn tough)(EDIT: removed demo)

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-05-2011 03:20 PM]

06-05-2011 at 02:59 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (+1)

ahh, run out of modpoints to +1 everyone's comments again

wow mxvladi, that's impressive. Pretty much the same as mine, apart from the last ~5 moves, I was always 1 move short.

In 1E, was it surviving the golems which wasn't fun, or bringing 2 down to the tar section?

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-05-2011 03:10 PM]

06-05-2011 at 03:07 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

da rogu3 wrote:
In 1E, was it surviving the golems which wasn't fun, or bringing 2 down to the tar section?

Surviving. Total trial-and-error, in my opinion. I've managed it only by luck, after a lot of attempts. Oh, and bringing-2-golems part is perfectly fine and definetily can be figured out by logic/planning rather than trial-and-error.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-05-2011 03:18 PM]

06-05-2011 at 03:17 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

If I added a force arrow + ormites (something like that) to force the player to start on the rightmost square facing south, would it still be too much trial and error from that point? If it does, I might have to completely change that section.

Also, for the record, the hard level doesn't require as much painfully specific manipulation as the 2nd level, it focuses more on the this looks impossible, until I see correct approach type of puzzle.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-05-2011 03:35 PM]

06-05-2011 at 03:21 PM

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Blondbeard
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

I agree. The golem part isn't fun

Surviving it, that is.

06-05-2011 at 06:56 PM

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Blondbeard
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File: PP Hard 1E Death.demo (1.9 KB)
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

So close

But it proves it can be done.

06-05-2011 at 07:46 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

The approach is correct, but you didn't leave a way to kill the snake afterwards.

Click here to view the secret text

Edit: Also, 1W on the second level will be made into a secret room, and the golem bit in 1E will be changed.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-05-2011 08:19 PM]

06-05-2011 at 08:18 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Update

Changes in v4
- renamed levels to 1,2 and 3
- new introduction level (with demo viewable from the main menu)
- new puzzle 1:1S and changed 1:1E
- made 1:1W less frustrating
- fixed US (hopefully) 2:1S1W
- made 2:1E less frustrating
- changed 2:1W, and new secret room 2:2W
- changed 3:1E very slightly

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-08-2011 05:14 PM]

06-05-2011 at 09:46 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

So, is it normal that I used the same solution in level 1: 1E and 1S? (attached demo for 1S - same solution is possible in 1E)(EDIT: removed demo)

Also, regarding level 2: 1W and 2W - I'm not really sure that efficiency puzzle is any easier than what you originally intended...(in other words, I'm not sure intended-solution-forcing version of the room should be secret and not vice versa)

Oh, and I like surviving-golems part in level 2: 1E much more now.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-06-2011 02:45 PM]

06-06-2011 at 12:06 AM

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Jacob
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

As I think I stated previously - I think this solution can be avoided with a west-pointing arrow leading out of the goblin's alcove.

(or you could put a pressure plate somewhere that forces the player to re-close the yellow door).

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06-06-2011 at 12:29 AM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Oops missed that, I'll get that fixed using the pressure plate suggestion.

Would you suggest I swap back 1W and 2W on the second level? I thought 2W might be a bit too frustrating to be required, what do you think?

Glad to know 2:1E is better

Oh, and solved the new 1S1W yet? :devil

I think it's much harder now that the intended solution is enforced. (unless another US emerges from the changes I've made)

Also, what does everyone think about the new introduction puzzle? I have no idea how difficult it is, or whether there are any unintended solutions, which is why I included the main menu demo. It's my attempt at creating a more lynchpin-like puzzle, without any finicky manipulation.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-07-2011 09:51 AM]

06-06-2011 at 10:43 AM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (+2)

da rogu3 wrote:
Would you suggest I swap back 1W and 2W on the second level? I thought 2W might be a bit too frustrating to be required, what do you think?

I initally thought that the intended solution to 1W is a bit too frustrating, but it seems I've been overthinking it - I've managed 2W in new version of the hold quite fast this time. And it took me lots of attempts to beat the timer. And not everyone is fan of difficult efficiency puzzles, too.

Oh, and solved the new 1S1W yet? I think it's much harder now that the intended solution is enforced. (unless another US emerges from the changes I've made)

I didn't need rattlesnake again

This time I lured roach queen at 17,12 while carving passage to the SW trapdoors.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-08-2011 01:26 PM]

06-08-2011 at 01:22 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

mxvladi wrote:
I initally thought that the intended solution to 1W is a bit too frustrating, but it seems I've been overthinking it - I've managed 2W in new version of the hold quite fast this time. And it took me lots of attempts to beat the timer. And not everyone is fan of difficult efficiency puzzles, too.

You're right, I constantly replayed the room for quite a while trying to cut down as many moves as I could, and even then I realised my last 5 moves weren't optimal till I saw your demo. And with 2W, it's easy once you know exactly what position you need to achieve, but very difficult if you just run around trying to make the snake go west. I will swap back the rooms (but still keep the efficiency challenge as a secret room, I don't want to remove it)

I didn't need rattlesnake again This time I lured roach queen at 17,12 while carving passage to the SW trapdoors.

Oh dear, can't believe I missed that, I was sure there would be too many roaches if you couldn't kill the top-right queen. Will need to fix that.

Also, what's your opinion on the introduction room?

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-08-2011 01:56 PM]

06-08-2011 at 01:55 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

da rogu3 wrote:
Also, what's your opinion on the introduction room?

Well, considering that you give away a demo of that room, it's fine... I personally found it harder than puzzles on first level, though. And why are you using spider there instead of, say, roach or tar baby or whatever?

Meanwhile - level 3 1E solved. My solution is somewhat different than what is written on the scroll(not any easier, though, but still...). Locations of golem corpses in my solution:

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-08-2011 03:58 PM]

06-08-2011 at 03:56 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

I used the spider's invisibility as a red herring, making the player think it would be safe to take the platform path first. Do people find that annoying? I thought it would be okay since the player would know about about the spider after playing the room once.

3:1E - interesting solution. It can't have been easy, only having 1 golem in the right section though

(my solution uses another golem corpse to stash the golem behind)

One thing I'm a bit concerned about is the difficulty progession. Level 1 is about 5 brains at most, level 2 jumps up to 7-8 brains, and level 3 is around 9 brains. Seeing as I've named the hold as 'perplexing', I'm not sure it makes much sense to include easier puzzles. I will probably remove that level entirely (but still use the rooms in another future hold)

06-08-2011 at 05:13 PM

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Jacob
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (+1)

I don't have too much to add, since a lot of the hold is too hard, but I agree with mxvladi that the introductory room is harder than some rooms in the first level, so it very much acts a bottleneck.

There may be players (like me) who could manage and enjoy the first level, but never get a chance to get to it.

(I assume you won't be leaving in the completion demo - or will you?)

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06-08-2011 at 06:52 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Jacob wrote: (I assume you won't be leaving in the completion demo - or will you?)

I think I will, mainly because it's forced upon the player, and there isn't any option to skip it. (I really like the puzzle, which is why I want to keep it at the beginning) And it's always nice to be able to watch a few victory demos, I wish more holds had them.

There may be players (like me) who could manage and enjoy the first level, but never get a chance to get to it.

This is exactly the reason I was considering removing the first level. I'd prefer the hold to be more consistent, and my intended audience is the hardcore/elite drod players. Other players might play and beat the first level, then get very frustrated with the later levels, and hardcore players would easily breeze through the level, then be surprised at the sudden difficulty increase later. (this is also the reason I want to remove any rooms / part of rooms reliant on trial and error, rather than planning / logic, I still want people to have fun, and *want* to solve as many rooms as they can)

At some point in the future, I am planning on making an medium difficultly hold, perfect for an intermediate drod player. The rooms in level 1 would probably fit much better in that hold.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-08-2011 07:50 PM]

06-08-2011 at 07:47 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

v5 Update

Some significant changes in the latest version. (see first post)

The old level 1 has been removed. Also, the hold is semi-linear. No more jumping around levels, instead you have to complete one level, to gain access to the next. I need feedback on the difficulty progression (mention any rooms in a later levels which are easier than earlier levels). Because of this change, I have made the hold anyone edit.

I've also changed the introduction puzzle a tiny bit. 1S1W has finally been fixed and shouldn't contain any more unintended solutions. There is a new puzzle 1N.

I've also included some title screen demos. There is one of the introduction puzzle, 1:1W, and the first 30 moves of 1N1E.

Also, for anyone on 2:1N1E (an extremely challenging room, about 9 or 10 brains), here are some hints:

Click here to view the secret text

Here are the rooms I mainly want feedback on:
introduction puzzle
1:1N
1:1W
1:1S1E (mainly check if US is gone)
2:1N1E
2:1E

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-11-2011 10:07 PM]

06-10-2011 at 09:31 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

da rogu3 wrote:
1S1W has finally been fixed and shouldn't contain any more unintended solutions.

I'm afraid just adding hot tile at 17,12 won't fix it. Sure, I had to manipulate roach queen some further this time, but still - no rattlesnake needed. Demo attached. (EDIT: removed demo)

Oh, and I personally don't think 1W is any more difficult/tedious than the rest of the rooms, so what's the point of making it secret?

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-10-2011 11:21 PM]

06-10-2011 at 10:20 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Oh wow. I didn't think of using the wraithwing to block the queen there, cleverly done. When I was testing the change I didn't use the wraithwing and couldn't clear the roaches coming from the top in time to move north to prevent the queen going on the hot tile.

Will need to seriously think / redesign that entire area, it seems, to fix it.

As for 1W, you are the only one so far who has solved it, and after the very first time it gets easier. I'm predicting that others might find it more frustrating. By making it secret, I'm giving players a choice of whether or not they want to do that room. I'm still really unsure what to do about it. (I might make it required, but add some decorations hinting at the correct positions of the snakes)

06-10-2011 at 10:52 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Just did a tiny update hopefully fixing the room. (If you manage to break it now..)

06-10-2011 at 11:23 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

da rogu3 wrote:
(If you manage to break it now..)

I did

(EDIT: removed demo)

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-11-2011 12:03 AM]

06-10-2011 at 11:51 PM

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da rogu3
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (0)

Wait, does that mean adding a hot tile at 18,14 should fix it? I was gonna do that, but removed it since I was unable to get the queen around the walls and thought the 18,12 one would be sufficient.

I've have updated with this one change

(please be a final one for this room)

06-10-2011 at 11:56 PM

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mxvladi
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Re: Perplexing Puzzles (+1)

Still didn't use rattlesnake. Although it was surely trickier to do this time. (EDIT: removed demo)

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-11-2011 11:57 AM]

06-11-2011 at 12:24 AM

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