NoahT
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12th Archivist wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
At the most, the only reaction to a downmod anyone should have is that if they don't know why they got it they can ask. If no one can say "you did this and I disliked it", it's not worth worrying about.

In any case, some reasonably inflammatory words have been thrown around in here, so I would advise the next poster(s) to think carefully before sending a reply. Enough undesirable material has been posted in here already; let's not add to it if possible.

Agreed. Let's just drop this matter. Getting riled up about mod downs is bad, but starting a flame war over it is worse. That may have to be added to the forum FAQ.

Also agreed. We don't need a repeat of what happened two years ago.

-Noah

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NiroZ
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Jatopian wrote:
That was 2006, kiddo, and I've never had even close to unlimited mod points. People learn as life goes on, and "don't give a crap about meaningless numbers" is one of those lessons.

Yes, but telling a 13? 14? year old boy whose first language isn't english who did what you did, sans the 'insult someone who tries to help' to cry some more isn't exactly helping anybody. And shows a startling lack of sympathy for someone who is in a similar situation to you.

I know you don't have unlimited mod points, but what you did could be construed to be elitist apathy of people who don't 'get' your world view.

Anyway, I agree that this is becoming perilously close to a flamewar, and that's the last thing I want. So this will be my last reply on the matter.

12th Archivist
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Not a flamewar yet. I'd say this was a 2 on the FN (flamewar notice) scale. FN 1 is the equivalent of DEFCON 1, which is bad. FN 4 is peace time, which is good.

It's a good thing that people are just dropping the matter right out of their computerized hands, but an admin may want to lock this thread so it doesn't spin any farther than it already has.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore. I haven't voiced my opinion, but I don't think it's necessary anymore. Pray to Erik that this doesn't ever come up again.

____________________________
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Banjooie
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so I accidently all of neather2's rankpoints

is this bad?

Sillyman
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You know... I think Neather2 might have been wondering why he was modded down, not just complaining about it. Maybe? Perhaps? Just a thought?

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Maurog
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Well, maybe someone should tell him. Preferrably the one who mod him down in the first place.

By the way, it's all right to say "dark past of the forum" and "we don't want a repeat" and ignore the fact that nothing have changed, honest. Let's just lock the thread and forget all about it, that will solve everything.

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skell
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Maurog wrote:
Let's just lock the thread and forget all about it, that will solve everything.

I sense a flood of sarcasm.
Surely It WON'T solve much, but it will (hopefully) postpone the problem to a moment when people are able to face this problem with open mind and objective point of view.

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agaricus5
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skell wrote:

Maurog wrote:
Let's just lock the thread and forget all about it, that will solve everything.

I sense a flood of sarcasm.
Surely It WON'T solve much, but it will (hopefully) postpone the problem to a moment when people are able to face this problem with open mind and objective point of view.

Maurog has a valid point, however. I doubt we would all have objective points of view at any time this might come up. As long as people fall into various levels of caring about the meaning of rank points and mod points, there will always be arguments.

I've already voiced my opinion on this, so the only thing I will add is to ask that the small minority of people who are being deliberately, negatively disruptive to stop. The reason why you even have a community to annoy or upset is because the rest of it is behaving constructively.

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Banjooie
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Look, once I tick off a few more people, I'm going to point out that the obvious cure for this is to remove the overall rank point total, but leave the individual post scores up. See: Slashdot.

But until this thread gets suitably riled up, there's absolutely no point: Everyone's just going to go 'nah there's no point, system works as intended'.

I mean, unless you want to sit here and tell me all about how lowering rank points has somehow eliminated unwanted behaviour from the community?

And how it hasn't, say, instead, just spurred people to make desperate grabs at getting rank points back rather than actively improving their behaviour?

But no, it's cool. Continue to blame people who don't sugarcoat the problem, instead of actually looking at the problem itself. That is what people like me are for; because I find your inability to grasp basic social psychology amusing, and when you blame /me/ instead of looking at your own issues, that lengthens the amount of time you're going to bumble about like a man with no hands trying to knit a scarf, ergo, lengthens the amount of time I am sitting back stroking my manly stubble.

So, please. Keep using the delicious scapegoat option. It is filling my heart with creme made entirely out of schadenfreude-flavored joy.

NiroZ
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Banjooie wrotebecause I find your inability to grasp basic social psychology amusing

What, um 'basic social psychology' is this?

Tim
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Interesting point you have there, but I don't believe that we need a draconian method just to stop some minority that can't behave.

It's clear that there seems to be some individuals who cannot handle their respsonsibility to use mod points.

It's hopefully clear what can be done to solve that problem. My suggestion is to undo the damage, and reduce their ability to mod posts.

I will help on the "undo the damage" part. If you think you have posts that you think have been modded down unfairly, post (the links of) them here, and I will decide myself if I mod them back up again. (I can't promise to mod up every one of your posts, especially since I have only a very small amount of mod points. I've been doing some modding up lately. )

As for the "reduce their ability to mod" part, I'm sure our admins will find a way to that.

____________________________
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---

[Last edited by Tim at 05-08-2009 01:06 PM]

NiroZ
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Tim wrote:
Interesting point you have there, but I don't believe that we need a draconian method just to stop some minority that can't behave.

It's clear that there seems to be some individuals who cannot handle their respsonsibility to use mod points.

It's hopefully clear what can be done to solve that problem. My suggestion is to undo the damage, and reduce their ability to mod posts.

I will help on the "undo the damage" part. If you think you have posts that you think have been modded down unfairly, post (the links of) them here, and I will decide myself if I mod them back up again. (I can't promise to mod up every one of your posts, especially since I have only a very small amount of mod points. I've been doing some modding up lately. )

Already doing that. Now they're picking on me instead. It is sad to have someone strip my rank points, its like someone going through your old awards and destroying some. But the fact that they're taking it out on me makes me proud that I'm wasting some idiots mod points.

It's funny. Whoever it is is taking it down slowly, in the hope that I won't notice until a months time or something like that. Which is like a obese person sneaking around in ninja tights, on tiptoes, with all the subtlety of an elephant.

More seriously, I think the only way we're going to solve the current problem is to remove the anonymity the surrounds rank points. I'm not suggesting you see exactly who has modded your posts, as that would bring it's own problems. But perhaps a list of the mod up/mod down events, searchable by username, would at least allow the admins be able to see if someone is going on a rampage destroying someones rank points.

Then again, this means more stuff on schik's plate. *grumble*

agaricus5
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Banjooie wrote:
I mean, unless you want to sit here and tell me all about how lowering rank points has somehow eliminated unwanted behaviour from the community?

Again, you're confusing rank points and mod points. I don't think that anyone has said here that a lowered rank point total has much impact or even meaning.

Look, once I tick off a few more people, I'm going to point out that the obvious cure for this is to remove the overall rank point total, but leave the individual post scores up. See: Slashdot.

Which separates rank points from mod points, and highlights the higher relative importance of mod points.

But no, it's cool. Continue to blame people who don't sugarcoat the problem, instead of actually looking at the problem itself.

Hence the argument. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to have it.

That is what people like me are for; because I find your inability to grasp basic social psychology amusing,

However, with regards to basic psychology, I find it somewhat intriguing that you feel the need to tell us that you (or people like you, to be precise) are necessary for negative criticism. If you feel it necessary to point out an issue, then just do so (as you have been doing).

and when you blame /me/

If you criticize, then I'd say it's fair game if you get criticized back. I don't see why you should take it so personally.

instead of looking at your own issues, that lengthens the amount of time you're going to bumble about like a man with no hands trying to knit a scarf, ergo, lengthens the amount of time I am sitting back stroking my manly stubble.

Well, yes, we should look at our own issues. If we end up arguing and pointing fingers, then that's our problem, right? If you find that sort of thing amusing, then why not gloat to yourself?

But no, let me be a bit less cynical. You are adding the above as a high-impact way to tell us your opinion, because you believe that it will (and is necessary to) solve the argument. However, I argue that it's mostly stating the obvious and what has already been said. Plus, it's not being very helpful, since you're making the problem personal, which always causes more arguments. If you want to point things out, then why don't you simply leave it at an impartial opinion and leave irrelevant personal feelings out of it?

However, to change the subject, I guess the best thing would be to try out hiding rank point totals from the left of posts. That sounds like the best compromise (although it could be a lot of work, I don't know).

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Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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NiroZ wrote:
More seriously, I think the only way we're going to solve the current problem is to remove the anonymity the surrounds rank points. I'm not suggesting you see exactly who has modded your posts, as that would bring it's own problems. But perhaps a list of the mod up/mod down events, searchable by username, would at least allow the admins be able to see if someone is going on a rampage destroying someones rank points.

NiroZ, it is a good suggestion. Personally, I'd also say that would be the easiest option. Anonymity is a thing that you shouldn't be given up on easily. And if it has to be, it should be very temporary and the people who proved to be causing us to use these measures should have very severe punishment, like banning.

More interesting is to know how these people got their mod points in the first place. Remember that most people who got their mod points had good reasons to receive them, except perhaps for some forum games where they gave away an excessive number of points, and perhaps some unofficial contests.

To be honest, I don't think we're near the giving up anonymity part yet. There's still enough mod points around to mod everyone up. Unfortunately.

Perhaps a better way is to increase the price of modding down. I think it's a good idea to encourage people to mod up good posts instead of modding down.

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
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Tim wrote:
Perhaps a better way is to increase the price of modding down. I think it's a good idea to encourage people to mod up good posts instead of modding down.

I don't think we need to worry about the mod down ratio to the mod up ratio. Except for these phantom vandetta's that someone seems to go on, there isn't a lot of problems with mod downs. Occasionally someone complains about a mod down, but that's usually resolved pretty quickly, and if worse comes to worse, its a single post that is modded down, not a vandetta against an individual or group of individual.

I think banning is also a little over the top. Just ban that person from modding for a little while. As you said, they've obviously earned their mod points some way, so they're not exactly bad people.

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-08-2009 03:05 PM]

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
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Yes, you're right.

I guess I was (and still am) very disappointed that we have to give up our anonymity just because some people cannot accept their responsibilities.

Or the fact that we'll have to disturb Schik again to fix this instead of letting him finish the RPG demos uploading.

I'm sorry to have sounded very harsh, but I feel that these people have done a disservice to the forum and Caravel.

Can we be nice again to each other from now on?

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Maurog
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Maybe we should make it more clear in the rules.

Something on the lines of "you are allowed to use your mod points in any way as long as it's not X, Y or Z" where X, Y and Z are the appropriate guidelines.

I feel that the absence of such rule might have given people the impression they are allowed to use their mod points as they see fit.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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Maurog wrote:
Maybe we should make it more clear in the rules.

Something on the lines of "you are allowed to use your mod points in any way as long as it's not X, Y or Z" where X, Y and Z are the appropriate guidelines.

I feel that the absence of such rule might have given people the impression they are allowed to use their mod points as they see fit.

I would support that, where "allow" and "guideline" means the same as it does with talking about certain topics here (e.g. politics or questionable behaviour) - you can do it if you really feel inclined, but we'd really rather if you didn't (and if it's really nasty, it may get reversed).

I don't advocate turning the forum into a "police state" as such, so these shouldn't be entirely hard-and-fast rules (nor should we have too many), but you're right that mod points aren't given any coverage at all in the Forum FAQ, and ironically, Rank points are.

What might you suggest?

____________________________
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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 05-08-2009 08:10 PM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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What might you suggest?

While I am not Maurog I have these which came to my mind:

"Mod points are not to carry out a vendetta against someone who you have something against regardless of the reasons, as such behavior is found abusive."
"Posts should be modded depending on how you like the post, not the poster."
"When modding posts, don't look at the author but look at the post content and how it relates with the topic."
"Giving random -'es is like going on the streets and offending random people - no one likes it and no one finds it amusing."

Something of this king perhaps?

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Banjooie
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Banjooie wrote:
Look, once I tick off a few more people, I'm going to point out that the obvious cure for this is to remove the overall rank point total, but leave the individual post scores up. See: Slashdot.

To paraphrase Agaricus's entire post:
Oh banj you and your having no idea what you're talking about

Immediately followed by
However, to change the subject, I guess the best thing would be to try out hiding rank point totals from the left of posts. That sounds like the best compromise (although it could be a lot of work, I don't know).

I see what you did there.

---

[Last edited by Banjooie at 05-08-2009 09:25 PM]

agaricus5
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Banjooie wrote:

Banjooie wrote:
Look, once I tick off a few more people, I'm going to point out that the obvious cure for this is to remove the overall rank point total, but leave the individual post scores up. See: Slashdot.

To paraphrase Agaricus's entire post:
Oh banj you and your having no idea what you're talking about

Immediately followed by
However, to change the subject, I guess the best thing would be to try out hiding rank point totals from the left of posts. That sounds like the best compromise (although it could be a lot of work, I don't know).

I see what you did there.

/sigh/

Please read this carefully.

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Banjooie
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Oh, my bad, that completely proves I--

Wait what?

However, negative modding seems to stir up debate with regards to post quality whenever it happens, so it nonetheless has the intended social effect, despite (or with the intention of) it being disruptive.

It seems to stir up 'oh god we shouldn't have this argument what are we doing' whenever it comes up. I really really doubt Neather2 has actually learned anything from this thread, nor has anyone making one of these 'why am I getting modded down what is this I'm confused and angered I don't even' threads. Ever.

In this case, Neather2 now has the opportunity to be told in words why negative mods might have been given, which is better than a flamewar of sorts.

Awesome. So, basically, your idea of a working system is 'get modded down a lot, make a thread about it, have a huge argument, figure out why you got modded down, and everyone wins?'

What the hell I'm beginning to think you're more into this argument thing than I am.

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

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Neather2, let me explain why you were modded down.

Schoolyard bullies pick on the kids that they know they'll get a rise out of. If the victims run back to the teacher crying, the bullies are going to get exactly the validation they're looking for. I'm not going to go as far as to say you deserved it, but were you asking for it? Ehhhh, maybe.

Reacting this way ("Unfair!") to silly things is only going to perpetuate the way people treat you. If you don't learn that one, you're going to be in for a rough life, buddy.

Let's let our functional moderation system moderate itself, kay?

This stuff in the middle is tl;dr. Can we fast-forward to Godwin?

____________________________
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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 05-08-2009 10:14 PM]

agaricus5
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Banjooie wrote:
Oh, my bad, that completely proves I--

Wait what?

You're looking at the wrong sentence:

In that light, I would support the request to remove your rank point total from next to your posts and only have it appear in your profile.

You made a post that basically says the rest of us think rank points are a necessary means of control, and you do not agree with it. Fair enough, but no-one else seems to think rank points mean much anyway, which you appear to have missed. I'm also trying to point out (perhaps unclearly), that I think mod points on the other hand do have some effect, and shouldn't be confused with rank points.

However, negative modding seems to stir up debate with regards to post quality whenever it happens, so it nonetheless has the intended social effect, despite (or with the intention of) it being disruptive.

It seems to stir up 'oh god we shouldn't have this argument what are we doing' whenever it comes up. I really really doubt Neather2 has actually learned anything from this thread, nor has anyone making one of these 'why am I getting modded down what is this I'm confused and angered I don't even' threads. Ever.

Well, that's your opinion. I'm not sure how you are arriving at such a conclusion, but your opinion is merely that. An opinion.

In this case, Neather2 now has the opportunity to be told in words why negative mods might have been given, which is better than a flamewar of sorts.

Awesome. So, basically, your idea of a working system is 'get modded down a lot, make a thread about it, have a huge argument, figure out why you got modded down, and everyone wins?'

Well, at least we figure something out. It's more constructive than passing off the maker of this thread as not having learned anything from it, and returning us all to square one.

What the hell I'm beginning to think you're more into this argument thing than I am.

If you believe that criticising people is necessary to make them improve or at the least, cease annoying you, then that's your opinion. But if you're going to judge people in general and use that as your excuse to do so, then, well, I don't know what to say. It certainly doesn't sound very mature.

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Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2467
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The fundamental problem here is that "mod" and "rank" are such loaded terms. What we need to do is change them to "deliberately assigned mod points" and "characteristically randomly-assigned points" respectively. When people say "Give me more mod points! My rank is too low!" it sounds like they're talking about some sort of objective evaluation of their status. If instead someone said "Give me more DAMP! My CRAP is too low!", everyone would be much clearer on whether these things really mean anything.

Of course, I care deeply about what characteristically randomly-assigned points my posts get, so I strongly encourage everyone to give this post as much CRAP as you can.

12th Archivist
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I hate contradicting myself. I promised I would stop posting here in case I was fueling the bad argument in any way.

Let me review who the people are in this thread.

Neather2: The guy who started it all. Your questions led to bad things. Fortunately, he is no longer posting in this thread, but unfortunately, he may be ignoring the thread entirely. I would ignore this thread too, but he needs to learn the lesson that RoboBob3000 posted.

Robobob3000: The guy who answers it all. He answered Neather2's answer straight and true.

Banjooie: The general protagonist of this thread. Protagonist simply means that you are one side of the argument, not meaning that you are the lawful or evil side of the argument. The opinion is truthful.

Agaricus5: The general antagonist of this thread. Antagonist simply means that you are the second side of the argument, not meaning that you are the evil or lawful side of the argument. The rebuttal is also truthful.

Tahnan: The guy who relates many points in this thread to various metaphors and similes.

What I'm trying to say here is that the argument should stop now. This is turning into a war between the two arguments. No offense to anyone in this thread, but I want to say one thing: shut up. Locking this thread may no longer be the best way to resolve this. While it would just end the argument right then and there, unresolved feelings may revert a person to immaturity, and have them spewing negative mods at who they're arguing with. Let's just end this now.

____________________________
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Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
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My 2 cents:

I've not read all the posts on this subject, nor all the posts the Neather2 has been modded down on, and I've not been involved in any of this modding but I have a simple observation.


[In the thread of a (very) challenging hold (Dungeon of Broken Orbs and calamarain's SmS are a couple of examples)]

Neather2: This hold was ok. It was very/too easy. I am disappointed that the architect did not do a better job. (comments to this effect)
...
Neather2: Hey, why did I get modded down?

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Maurog wrote:
Maybe we should make it more clear in the rules.

Rules, what rules? Technically, if I was to send death threats to people on the forum, I would be within the rules.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2467
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12th Archivist wrote:
Tahnan: The guy who relates many points in this thread to various metaphors and similes.

Huhwhat? Many points? Metaphors and similes? I didn't read the thread. OK, I skimmed it. But I wasn't relating any points to anything; I was just saying "for heaven's sake they're stupid numbers can we stop caring?".

Think of me as Banjooie. (Edit to add: not a fair comparison, because Banjooie reads threads before posting something to take the wind out of overblown sails. But you get the idea.)

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 05-09-2009 02:42 AM]

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
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I've only just noticed this thread and thought I'd give some input...

I have fallen out with many players over the years and have posted things whilst not quite in the right frame of mind. I accept that people will mod down those posts, and that those I have argued with will disagree with some of the stuff I've said.

I also realise that mod points aren't supposed to matter, but they do to me. They're a representation of the time I've spent on these forums. When I first arrived here, I looked at posts made by 1k+ mod forumites and figured I could trust their advice more than others. This is a faceless place, and so mod points become a replacement for respect.

From my side, I was just happily going along until I neared 1000. At that point, everything was modded down. Sure, I'm brash at times but I'd never had a mod-down for 3 years even during the heated arguments I was having with other players. I mellowed after that, but still seeing -1s coming up everywhere - even for advice and H&S so I stopped posting for a while.

Once I came back, everything was back to normal. I contributed to the forums with helpful posts and hints etc and then over one weekend, I was back down to 977 from 1027 (and as briareos pointed out, I had celebrated my first 1000 a while before).

This time, the downmods never hit negatives, so was harder to detect.

This for example took me 2 hours to write and was +4. I felt that was the forum showing their appreciation. Overnight it was reduced to 0. Should I not bother spending time on this forum?

If I was to publish a hold and it got all 1s because of "points don't matter, it's just someone modding you down", should I put the effort into making one?

If mod points aren't important, get rid of them. As I understand them, they represent long-term status on the forum.