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12th Archivist
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This here is a major update! It includes all of Cell Block A, and the last few choices for goodies!

Version 1.7:
+ added, $ adjusted, * fixed, ^ identified problems
==========
+ All of Cell Block A
+ Small part of Imperial Defense
+ Flippers, Really Big Sword, and Oremite Shield (can you find it?)
$ The game does not assume you have both the Hook and the Knight Shield, so it makes the game slightly easier

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12-15-2008 at 10:46 PM
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Gordius
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Cell Block A looks good so far, but the staircase back up to B takes you to an empty Imperial Defense Room, meaning I can't head back up to get the RBS, meaning I'm not in a position to defeat the Gel Mother and open that door.

Having done everything I can/want to on this floor, my stats are:

HP 7593
ATK 296 (Hook)
Def 235 (Steel)
Gr 8362

I could upgrade my shield, but I have to pay my way around the gel mother to open the door down there, and I'm almost certain I can get the Oremite shield now if I backtrack, so it seems like a waste.

Compared to the last version, where I was struggling to improve my stats enough in B to get by the three guardians of the steel shield, B in this version seems a little too generous. Not a lot too generous, but a little.
12-16-2008 at 12:36 AM
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I've updated the hold. Patch list later.

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12-16-2008 at 01:16 AM
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Kwakstur
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Oh, :hi to the forum, Gordius!

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12-16-2008 at 02:12 AM
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Someone Else
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In C: 2S 3E, if you kill the Grey man before he is able to speak the second time, the speech appears off to the right.
12-16-2008 at 02:21 AM
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TFMurphy
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Completed the current version of the hold. I continued my game in the editor since the Cell Block A backtracking staircase *still* doesn't work. I did however keep within the restraints of the hold with regards to how much things cost. I've noted that you blocked off the Oremite Shield in the new version of Cell Block B though; I completed my playthrough by "collecting it" through backtracking (since it was still open in my current save), but it's now impossible to get in the new version, as it's behind a Black Door which cannot be opened. Even were you to add a Portable Orb somewhere, you have no inventory to carry it over the water.

Anyways. There's several places that are just... too easy. And several items that are way too expensive. The Goblin Biter is a very large example: it costs a Blue Key and at the time you're *expected* to get it, it also costs another 350-400 HP or so. Compare that to the Long Sword, which *also* costs a Blue Key, and costs 1840 HP. A Blue Key is worth 1200 HP in score, and you'll want the Long Sword eventually. Getting it *early* severely reduces the damage of everything else you could fight in Cell Block B, *and* saves you a Blue Key. After that, you're in good shape to go after the Aumtlich cache in Cell Block B (where you take 8 hits minimum reducing you to 1/256th of your current HP - so spending more HP to get the Long Sword isn't exactly that big a deal) which gets you well on your way to 150 ATK and being able to collect the Steel Shield virtually painlessly.

The same thing happens with early Cell Block A. You only need to rush for the Hook and a few extra Power Gems, and you'll end up with plenty of ATK to kill the Pirate and not even *bother* going the long way around and spending all those greckles. It even costs less HP than it would due to all the monsters guarding the long way around. And once you have the Flippers, it's off to get the Really Big Sword (and the Oremite Shield in the old version), and Cell Block A is pretty much dealt with.

And even without the Oremite Shield, there's a wealth of Power and Shield Gems you can collect pretty painlessly with the RBS, and the Flippers take you around most obstacles.

I must say I was disappointed that there's no way to traverse 3N2W without taking at least one Aumtlich hit. That pretty much puts a huge damper on any backtracking past that point - if you *do* want to backtrack, you'll have to carefully manage your Potions so that you only have *just* enough HP to get across and back, and only when you have no more intention of backtracking anymore do you collect all remaining potions (which you then lose half of getting past the Aumtlich beam). Not a huge issue... though it is also a room that pretty much *requires* that you have the RBS, since traversing it without it would reduce your HP to 1/64th of its previous total. Would've been nice to be able to kill some of the more troublesome Aumtlich in that room.


[Last edited by TFMurphy at 12-16-2008 03:11 AM]
12-16-2008 at 03:01 AM
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12th Archivist
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I'll fix this when I'm done with my seemingly 17 hour long movie. In the meantime, you'll just have to sit tight with the things laid out for you now.

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12-16-2008 at 03:14 AM
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TFMurphy
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Nuntar wrote:
Yes, but isn't that just another case of rewarding the player for good optimisation? It's certainly not trivial to be able to get the Long Sword first, as you imply. Going back to my last pre-Goblin Biter save I was able to get the Long Sword, but only just, and (as far as I can see) I can't continue with the hold on the HP I have left. I'm sure I could get it if I went back further and put a lot of thought into optimising, but anyway, point stands, most players won't realise it's even possible, and so it's well worth putting in a nice reward for completing this challenge.

It's more akin to your point on Swordsman - where if you pass a certain threshold, they become trivial faster than most other enemies of their level. Whether the Long Sword can be collected early or not isn't really as strong a issue: the Goblin Biter, on the other hand, costs a Blue Key, and being able to save a Blue Key creates a knock-on effect as you progress through the hold, buying more things earlier than you should. (Example: let's say I couldn't kill the Pirate early. I could've used my spare Blue Key instead and get the Flippers that way) If the Goblin Biter didn't cost a Blue Key, and one of the Blue Keys elsewhere was downgraded, then the advantage of skipping the Goblin-Biter wouldn't be so critical.

(And for the record, I go after the Long Sword with the following stats: 2031 HP, 86 ATK, 88 DEF. This gives a comfortable 941 HP after collecting the Long Sword, and depending on which route you take afterwards, you can either get to the Aumtlich cache with just enough HP to survive (and thus minimize HP loss), or you can keep your HP above 500 by picking up some of the slightly less optimal potions immediately (B:1N1E, C:3S1W) and make your way through to at least 1S2E. So there's certainly a little bit of leeway in there. One of your early troubles might've been the Aumtlich in Cell Block D, at a guess - there's over 400 HP you can save there if you leave as many potions as possible before collecting the items left in its beam.)
12-16-2008 at 03:55 AM
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12th Archivist
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The hold has been updated. Suffice to say, attaining either the RBS or Oremite Shield is not as easy as you think. No patch list is needed.

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12-16-2008 at 02:07 PM
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Blondbeard
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Goblin merchant still works less than optimaly. If I just go and activate him the game crashes (I can't move). I have to first say no (undo) to him, and then say yes. And the return stairs after defeting the red guard leads totally wrong. Other than that it was really challanging to continue after obtaining the long sword, but pretty soon after that, if you survive, you gather a buildup momentum, and just gain a lot of HP. My stats after red guard defeted: HP 4172, ATK 192, DEF 185, GR 3685 (The greckles has never been a problem. Perhaps they will be, but right now they don't really contribute anything.) Keys: 1/3/1/0.

Also: The Knight shield is a bit unnecesarry, since the player with a good memory will surely have memorized the position of the ormite shield, which is obtainable once you get the flippers. (Or will be, once the stairs bug is fixed).

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 12-16-2008 03:21 PM]
12-16-2008 at 03:09 PM
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12th Archivist
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The hold has been updated with a whole lot of bug fixes (thanks to Nuntar), power corks (thanks to Chaco), and some new content (thanks to my little dog Poncho)! I can't give a patch list right now, but I can and will update the hold for those eagerly waiting to test the new version!

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Check out the DROD Wikia project here!
12-17-2008 at 01:26 AM
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Gordius
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I knew I was forgetting to mention something in my earlier post. Similar to Blondbeard's concerns, I think the goblin merchant gets hung up if your sword is in the way of the path he intends to take out of the room. It's been different in different versions, but when you back away, it can hang in the cutscene. If you undo and back away in a different direction or turn the sword, he can then get out and it's fine.
12-17-2008 at 01:52 AM
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Blondbeard
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Three things that doesn't seem right with the latest version: Getting the hook is a very bad idea. I couldn't even defeat a pirate when I encountered it, but I could get the really big sword quite easily. (also: using a blue key to save 2500 lives seems like a good idea. I didn't do it, however, saving the key for later).

To get the flippers costs less lives if you defeat the Rock Giant than if you take the other way around, unless you give up on a lot of bonuses. And finally: The Ormite Shield seems impossible to obtain as you would need both the flippers and a portable orb.

The stairs from Imperial Defense doesn't lead back, but loops you back to imperial defense. Nice to see I had 10000 greckles and 5600 lives for a reason, though :) After the second goblin merchant the hardcore goblin king only would have costed 18000 lives.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 12-17-2008 08:11 AM]
12-17-2008 at 07:47 AM
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Are you getting the absolute latest version? Since I changed the path to the oremite shield to pit, so you could use your grappling hook to get it. I'm not sure what to do about the pirate, but I might remove him.

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12-17-2008 at 01:36 PM
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This here is the absolute latest version!!! The Imperial Defense stairs lead back to Cell Block A, and the whole concept about how exactly to get the OS has been fixed. The newest version will override the previous one in the first post.

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12-17-2008 at 01:46 PM
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Blondbeard
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Ah! No, I haden't the "latest version", kind of, since I played from an old save. Rooms you've been to doesn't change. I guess I'll have to replay a bit more.
12-17-2008 at 02:16 PM
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Don't worry about it. There's no problem.

The hold has been updated with some minor new content. I've completed more of Imperial Defense. This is good.

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12-17-2008 at 02:27 PM
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Blondbeard
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The hold is great, but I think you have fouled up with the Convict Catcher in the newest version. You need everything you can get to be able to hurt him, and I think it's impossible to get through the halving lives beams with enough lives left to beat the fegundo, and then have enough lives to beat the Convict Catcher. Luckely enough I had a spare blue key, since I didn't grab the Goblin Biter, but others might not be so fortunate.
12-17-2008 at 05:51 PM
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Chaco
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I'm going to have to agree with Blondbeard on this one - I had comfortably gathered about 174 ATK by the time I reached him (the Convict Catcher being the new boss of Cell Block B Once North to replace the old Red Guard) but I'd have to expend a lot of resources to beat him fairly.

I think 130 to 140 DEF might be a more reasonable number - with me doing less than 75 damage a hit it would be a tough but fair fight at this stage in the game, and worth trying instead of spending a blue key (which might be needed later).

Incidentally, I think you should give this guy a custom color, just like you did for the Obsidian Statues, so we can differentiate him from the Swordsman enemy, just as we can differentiate the Obsidian Statues from Wubbas.

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12-17-2008 at 10:15 PM
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This new version here includes a few more rooms in Imperial Defense, slight gameplay changes, a few monster stat changes, and an excruciatingly complicated script that gives you stats for greckles. I know that there are multiple mugs with him, but I can't solve them now. I will get to them as soon as possible.

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12-18-2008 at 04:45 AM
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Here's one of the final versions! It includes all of Imperial Defense, some new challenges, and the final boss. There's also a way of getting lots of stats. Can you find it?

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12-18-2008 at 02:20 PM
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Blondbeard
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Since the stats for greckles isn't working (it takes my money, and doesn't give me stats) I think the hold is impossible to comlete. Also in the stats for greckles I would like multiple options in order to save time. It would be good if you also included 5 atk for 500 greckles, and 5 def for 250 greckles. I ended the hold with more than 20000 greckles, and doing the exakt same thing 20 times doesn't seem so fun ;)
12-18-2008 at 06:15 PM
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Kwakstur
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Yeah, I'm wondering why he gives higher Def boosts than Atk. The choice is almost obvious. Defense is more important than Attack. 5 defense will shave off much more Expected Damage than 5 attack in most stuations.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 12-19-2008 02:32 AM]
12-19-2008 at 02:27 AM
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Blondbeard
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Not necesarilly (even though the last boss might be what makes you right). If you add some 40 DEF you can kill serpents for zero damage.
12-19-2008 at 03:58 AM
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deftriver
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Well, I'm having a lot of trouble on Imperial Defense. Maybe I went to far on previous levels, I have the Really Big Sword and the Oremite Shield.

12-20-2008 at 03:31 AM
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Gordius
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Given that the Imperial Wrathmen look like Goblins, it seems like they ought to be vulnerable to the Goblin Biter (and attack you if your sword isn't facing properly). Not that it's worthwhile to get the Goblin Biter down there currently, since you have to be hit by a few beams, but a back staircase that would connect up to, for example, the pair of eastern black doors in Cell Block D would be interesting. By that point, the doubling effect would more than make up for the loss of 190 ATK because it's a worse sword. I'm not saying it should be easy (or necessary) to fight to this back staircase, but it would provide an alternate means of dealing with the challenges of the Imperial Defense.

And, more generally, a few more doors that help to shorten long paths after you've been through the hard way (Cell Block B is a good example of where you've done this) would be nice. The yellow key behind the spider a 1:1W is always the last one I get before leaving the level, and it's a long trek back to get it.
12-20-2008 at 04:22 AM
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deftriver
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Huh? Does the goblin biter work against those? I thought that it wouldn't be good enough even if it did because the RBS is a lot better.
12-21-2008 at 01:00 AM
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deftriver
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But the GB doesn't work against them so it wouldn't be good. So regular goblins and actual goblin kings are vulnerable to it, anything else?
12-21-2008 at 02:14 AM
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Gordius
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Well, if they aren't intended to be goblin-like, they probably should use a different image. With a custom monster, neither the picture nor the name is any guarantee of how a monster behaves, but the picture associated with the monster seems to me a lot more prominent than the monster name. If the picture had been a grey man, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.
12-21-2008 at 02:38 AM
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Not to fear! I have not forgotten about this hold. I've updated it with many changes. The bombs separating part one from part two of Imperial Defense has been replaced with obstacles. Ctrl-Click is safe again! Not only that, but I deleted the Gem Merchant and replaced him with a High Scores merchant. He will give you a better High Score by giving him keys and health and stuff. He is currently under construction, however, and will be put in at a later date.

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12-22-2008 at 05:12 PM
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