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Chaco
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+1)  
quote:

I hate to be such a bother, but could someone help me list what aumtlich beams do?



An aumtlich beam also prevents mimics (and decoys, although that isn't a problem for them) from moving.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-04-2007 11:41 PM]
09-04-2007 at 11:41 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+1)  
To be complete, perpendicular swords also reflect beams back at aumtlichts. (q: hmm, is that all swords/hooks? I can't check at the moment.)
09-04-2007 at 11:57 PM
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Syntax
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quote:
Jatopian wrote:
to be such a bother, but could someone help me list what aumtlich beams do?
They also light fuses...
09-05-2007 at 12:27 AM
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bflatjeff
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (0)  
I've noticed something regarding the aumtlich gaze that doesn't quite make sense to me. Placing Beethro's sword perpendicular to the beam should freeze the aumtlich. However, there are situations where I move or turn the sword so that it is perpendicular to the beam, and then the aumtlich moves into a different position, remaining unfrozen.
I know I move before the aumtlich, so why is it not frozen after my move? As things are, I have to figure its next move and try to place my sword in the appropriate place for where it's going to move. Usually this involves copious use of the "undo" function.
Attached is a room I created that seeks to exploit freezing aumtlichs with the sword, and a demo illustrating my difficulty.

BbJ

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[Last edited by bflatjeff at 09-05-2007 03:01 AM]
09-05-2007 at 02:57 AM
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (0)  
And the demo.

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09-05-2007 at 03:02 AM
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Syntax
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+1)  
This has been brought up before a couple of times (This is an example). It's not been considered a bug however (aumtlich's freeze once they *themselves* have moved including reflecting upon themselves)...
09-05-2007 at 03:09 AM
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ExplodingCabbage
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I don't understand bibelot's explanation of wraithwing movement, mainly because I lost track of which wraithwing 'that wraithwing' was midway through the explanation. Could someone clarify? I understand that distance is calculated by taking the maximum horizontal or vertical distance. So, let us have Wraithwing 1 and Wraithwing 2. Wraithwing 1 is n squares away from Beethro. Wraithwing 2 is m squares away from Beethro. Wraithwings 1 and 2 are y squares away from each other. How does Wraithwing 1 decide whether to attack or flee?
11-04-2007 at 08:46 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+2)  
The important thing to remember about wraithwings is that a lone wraithwing will never attack you (it tries to stay 5 squares away). If there's more than one wraithwing, one might attack you. Bibelot's explanation sounds confusing, well, because pairs of wraithwings just are confusing. Generally, if you step in between a pair of wraithwings at close range, at least one of them will move towards you.

d in bibelot's explanation is n in your question
d2 in bibelot's explanation is m in your question
d3 in bibelot's explanation is y in your question

bibelot is saying that Wraithwing 1 will attack if |n - m| <= 2 and y >= 3

[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 11-06-2007 04:46 AM : left out absolute value sign - thanks, Rabscuttle!]
11-05-2007 at 12:01 PM
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ExplodingCabbage
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Ah. Thanks. But isn't that highly illogical? Surely a wraithwing should be more inclined to attack if its buddy is CLOSER to Beethro, yet it would seem that Bibelot's explanation says the opposite - if there is one wraithwing next to Beethro in the middle of the room, and all the others are in a line 5 squares away, then for the wraithwing next to Beethro, n-m is large and negative (so it attacks) and for all the ones miles away from Beethro, n-m is large and positive (so they flee). Yet common sense and memory of my observations says the opposite should and does take place.

[Last edited by ExplodingCabbage at 11-05-2007 10:13 PM]
11-05-2007 at 10:11 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+2)  
It's the absolute difference between n and m. So to be precise you want |n-m| <= 2.

I find a lot of the confusing behaviour comes from the movement order - the second wraithwing moves after the first one, so to know where it's going to go, you need to know where the first one ended up.

Anyway - in your example
WB....W

Wraithwing 1 is on the left, wraithwing 2 is on the right.

wraithwing 1: (n = 1, m = 5, y = 6) -> |1-5| = 4 > 2 -> it flees.
wraithwing 2: (WW1 has moved) (n = 2, m = 5, y = 5) -> |5-2| = 3 > 2 -> it stays still because it is 5 squares away.

If Beethro waits, then on the next turn WW1 will flee again but WW2 should attack.




[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 11-05-2007 11:39 PM]
11-05-2007 at 11:10 PM
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Jatopian
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quote:
ExplodingCabbage wrote:
Ah. Thanks. But isn't that highly illogical? Surely a wraithwing should be more inclined to attack if its buddy is CLOSER to Beethro, yet it would seem that Bibelot's explanation says the opposite
I think the rationale is that because wraithwings are cowardly, they not only avoid Beethro when not in groups, they also don't want to fight another wraithwing for his carcass. That's what I'd say, anyway.

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11-05-2007 at 11:36 PM
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ExplodingCabbage
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Thank you, Rabscuttle. Those modulus signs made everything much clearer, as did your explanation of how move order confuses things. Perhaps the old post should be updated to explain it's the absolute difference that matters? I'm sure I'm not the first to be confused by this.
11-06-2007 at 04:16 PM
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bwross
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+1)  
quote:
Jatopian wrote:
I think the rationale is that because wraithwings are cowardly, they not only avoid Beethro when not in groups, they also don't want to fight another wraithwing for his carcass. That's what I'd say, anyway.


Actually, it's quite the opposite... Wraithwings want to swarm the carcass all at once, and even try to coordinate that.

Putting the rules into English:

|n - m| <= 2: My buddy is about the same distance from the target as me... we'll arrive at about the same time.

y >= 3: My buddy is approaching from a different angle[*] so we'll not interfere with each other while flanking him.

So in the 'WB....W' example, what's happening is that the close wraithwing is backing off to better time its approach to match its comrade on the other side.

[*] Because this is taking place inside the radius 5 box around the target, a distance of three is pretty large. The first rule further removes those cases where we'd be in the same line, because we can't be both "at least 3 apart" and "no more than 2 apart" in those cases.
11-15-2007 at 01:09 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (0)  
Fun canon note: on the surface, they act somewhat similarly to vultures, except that they're more impatient.

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11-17-2007 at 08:08 AM
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MarkaRagnos
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Is there a way I can get the actual scripting for the monsters? Or is it not even possible to create them in the DROD editor? If I could it would help a lot.

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06-29-2008 at 04:31 AM
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Tuttle
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They're not done in scripting, but the source code is available: http://www.caravelgames.com/sourcecode.html

The wraithwing movement is in DRODLib\WraithWing.cpp.
06-29-2008 at 05:16 AM
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MarkaRagnos
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Thanks

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06-29-2008 at 01:14 PM
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MarkaRagnos
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When I download it it saves as a .rar file, instead of a .zip file (like it should). this wouldn't be a problem, except I have no idea what to do with a .rar file, because my computer keeps opening it in Windows Media Player!
Help?

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06-29-2008 at 01:21 PM
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Briareos
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quote:
MarkaRagnos wrote:
When I download it it saves as a .rar file, instead of a .zip file (like it should). this wouldn't be a problem, except I have no idea what to do with a .rar file, because my computer keeps opening it in Windows Media Player!
Help?

The source code archives are RAR-files, it's just that the text of the 2.0 link is wrong. That association with Media Player is strange, unless you made the error of installing one of those crappy codec packs floating around the net.

If you're lacking a program to open RAR files I'd recommend 7zip, which among oodles of other formats also handles RAR-files well. (Not to mention that it's own 7z format compresses even better that ZIP and RAR, but that's probably [not] what you're looking for right now... :))

np: The Orb - Asylum (Soul Catcher Mix) (Orblivion Versions)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 06-30-2008 09:11 AM]
06-29-2008 at 01:40 PM
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MarkaRagnos
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Thanks! I'll try that.

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06-30-2008 at 04:30 AM
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MarkaRagnos
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (0)  
One more thing (probably), what do the .h and .cpp files do?

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06-30-2008 at 03:17 PM
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Tuttle
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.CPP files (C Plus Plus) are where the real code sits -- these are the files that actually define what a roach or a tarbaby does.

.H files (Header) just document the public interface to the stuff that's in the .CPP file. So in a much larger project where different parts are potentially owned by different people who don't want to share their code, all you need to use a guard in the main program is a pre-compiled copy of the Swordsman class and a copy of Swordsman.h so you know how to talk to it. Swordsman.cpp itself could be kept secret and proprietary by whoever owns that code.

For what you want to do, skip the .H files completely and just look at the .CPP files.
06-30-2008 at 04:12 PM
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Briareos
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (+1)  
Here's a tutorial - I'd stay away from C++ until you know a bit or two about C...

np: The Orb - Passing Of Time (Ambient Mix) (Orblivion Versions)



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[Last edited by Briareos at 06-30-2008 04:17 PM]
06-30-2008 at 04:15 PM
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Tim
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I don't think that's going to help him to recreate the same monsters using the DROD editor.

An advice, don't even try. Even if you are giving all the information, it would be a lot of work to keep track of them, exspecially for wraithwings.

I'd also ask everyone to continue his request in a new thread, and keep this to the explanation of monster movements. Please?
</offtopic>
=============

Just for fun, here are some points that still need more explanation while I was doing Simplicity DS, because this thread wasn't explaining enough:

* Eyes can still see you while standing on a door.
* Movement preference of brained roaches.
* Waiting behaviour of brained goblins.
* Alternative movement of brained wraithwings if the first choice is blocked.

My current mock-up does approximations for some of these points, which is good enough for me. ;)

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07-01-2008 at 01:12 AM
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mxvladi
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Well, I saw that there's no explanation about Halph and Slayer's movement in this topic. I think that it might be useful:

Halph.

General description

Halph is vulnerable to hot tiles, fegundo explosions, bomb explosions, swords, dropped bridges and briar. He is generally used to open doors or as movable obstacle for monsters. Once beethro bumps specific door, he will go and try to open it, if he can. Once beethro bumps him, he will try to follow beethro; when beethro bumps him again, he'll stop.

Movement order

Later than Beethro, mimics, decoys, fegundos, stalwarts, slayers. He is pretty much as "fast" as monsters(depends on placement - for instance, if Halph entered room on turn 5, he'll move later than any of inital monsters in the room, but earlier than spawned ones). Earlier than citizens, NPCs.

Entering the room

On each 5th turn, Halph will enter the room, if the entrance tile isn't occupied.

His enter-room move occurs earlier than anything except player's move.

Getting to the orb/pressure plate

If Halph can get to pressure plate or orb which opens door Beethro bumped, he will use the shortest aviable path to get there. If he is standing on on/off pressure plate which opens the door once unpressed, he'll think that he can't open the door.

Bumping into different door while Halph is trying to open the first one will make him try to open the one you bumped last. Bumping into door Halph can't open while he is opening some other door won't stop him or change his path - he will just ignore that bump.

Once he opened the door, he'll wait one turn and will try to return to the square where he was when Beethro bumped the door he was opening. Note that bumping into the same door once will result in Halph moving back to square where he was when you *first* bumped that door. However, bumping *different* doors(which he can open) will result in him going back to square where he was when you bumped different door last time.

If he can't return on the square where he was when you last bumped the door, he will try to get on the closest of 8 neighbouring tiles of that square. If he can't, he'll just stay on pressure plate/near orb.

If the way to the orb/pressure plate is blocked while he was going for it, he'll wait one turn and will return to the square where he was when you bumped the door last time.

Following Beethro

Halph tries to get on one of 8 squares near Beethro. If he can't, he will stop and wait until he can get to Beethro again, and will try to get to him again. Beethro's sword is invisible obstacle for Halph when following Beethro(but not when getting to the orb/pressure plate).

==================

Slayer

Well, firstly, I'll explain the Slayer finding you algorithm when you're entering the room first time. In fact, it's direction priority again:

W, N, E, S, NE, NW, SE, SW

It fact, this direction priority has practically no difference between itself and Halph's. So, it's explained. Now, the turning his hook to you algorithm. He turns hook to you when you're pretty close to him(less than 5 squares) and when you have sword/hook/whatever. When you haven't any weapon it won't even try to turn his hook to you.

When it can't physically reach you it tries to come to you as close as it can by using the simple Flexible Beelining movement(like aumtlich)

Also, like Halph and unlike brained roaches, he doesn't count arrows as obstacles when he can reach the player using this arrow and he counts many brain-invisble obstacles as obstacles when he can't reach player through them.

When fighting, Slayer is pretty tough enemy, but he has some weaknesses. He:

-won't kill other Slayer even if it will cost this Slayer's life;

-won't touch the bomb with the hook even if it will cost this Slayer's life;

-will try to retreat if you put your sword near by with 90 degress direction change between it and his hook;


And finally, the slayer's hook. It's the thing that tries to find the shortest way to you. I already wrote which direction priority it uses(W, N, E, S, NE, NW, SE, SW). So, what does it do when it finds the player? It makes the Slayer to go to player copying wisp's path. AFter that, when player moves, the wisp copies his/her movement and Slayer knows where to move. But when Slayer comes close enough(less than 5 squares), player can run from the wisp. PLayer's sword must be directed onto the Slayer, so Slayer will have to turn his hook and forget about wisp for a while.

Also, when there's obstacle on the wisp's path, even if it's something slayable(say, roach), the Slayer will restart finding path to player with wisp if his hook doesn't kill monster when he comes close(he's not clever enough to turn his hook and slay the monster who's blocking the path).

One of the things you should know that the Slayer doesn't always clearly follows wisp's path. If player touches the wisp's path somewhere in the middle of the path the Slayer will cut the wisp's path that goes after that middle and will continue the path in direction of the player. Remeber it!

And also, I don't know why, but the wisp resets the path when you use the tunnel even if this tunnel leads nowhere/has no pair-tunnel.

That's all I could write about Halph and a Slayer. Tell me if I've missed something.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 11-17-2010 06:44 AM]
10-31-2008 at 04:09 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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Excellent guide, mxlvadi. I actually learned something, something that previously only happened while stumbling through Advanced Concepts! *shudder* :D

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10-31-2008 at 11:02 PM
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TFMurphy
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quote:
mxvladi wrote:
-unlike brained roaches which have N, W, E, S, NW, NE, SW, SE direction priority, he has the following direction priority:
W, N, E, S, NW, NE, SE, SW


Not quite, I'm afraid. And this is why I eventually ended up not doing a full guide for Halph and Slayer. You've done well in your explanation, but it's unfortunately not that simple.

The actual priority that is "supposed" to exist is N, E, S, W, NE, SE, SW, NW. However, due to the way the paths are made, Halph actually has no easily discernable movement priority. He suffers from the same predictability problems as Stalwarts do, as listed in this topic. It is essentially impossible to predict the exact route Halph will take to any orb unless only one path exists.

The same applies to Slayer Wisps, but at least you'll see the wisp before the Slayer traverses it. Slayer movement in close combat is equally complicated and I didn't feel at all comfortable when trying to break it down to a relatively simple to understand form. I'll note that while the Wisp priority is the same as Halph's pathfinding priority, the Slayer's "defensive move" priority is Wait, Turn Clockwise, Turn Anticlockwise, N, E, S, W, NE, SE, SW, NW. But there's many ways he can break ties without falling to priority, so it's not that simple either.

Oh, and when the Slayer can't find you, then his standard priority is the same as any Flexible Movement character's: that means he makes a normal movement towards you, but can sidestep obstacles in his path and given a choice between vertical and horizontal moves, he will take whichever closes the distance more.

===

These are very complicated entities to accurately describe though, so well done in any case.
10-31-2008 at 11:25 PM
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GigaClon
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icon Re: Monster Movement Clarification (0)  
Could someone condense the various postings into a new sticky that could be edited with future information
10-13-2009 at 07:47 PM
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Syntax
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Why don't you give it a shot? I'm sure many of us would appreciate the effort...
10-15-2009 at 05:07 PM
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I've read the description of snakes and still don't quite get it, so please could someone explain exactly why the snake in this picture turns left on the next turn rather than staying on his preferred vertical?
05-18-2012 at 10:40 AM
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