mrimer
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Excited by Swivel's DROD list on another thread (esp. #12, Common Forms), I've moved this thread over from a JtRH board used previously by the dev team. We talk about what we call Puzzle Widgets, architectural devices that can be used over and over to effectively make things happen. For example, placing a roach queen on a force arrow in a corner as a stationary roach generator. Or (as Swivel stated) 2-wide corridors to create an impassable area when filled by tar. Of course there are many more -- add your own here! (How about someone compile a list of these for a new Architect's Toolkit article?)

===============================================================

As we work on the new official hold, I thought it might be useful to brainstorm how new features could be used to create new or refine existing puzzle widgets (game elements combined to achieve a common puzzle effect).

For example, constructing a stationary roach generator: previously, to do this, a roach queen was placed in a corner on a force arrow. Disadvantages: queen can spawn at most 3 roaches at a time; since the force arrow is mostly hidden under the queen, the player can inadvertently get trapped on the arrow with no way out.

An alternate construction of the roach generator can be implemented with a new game element: place a roach queen on an ortho square, surrounded by walls on the four sides.

.W.
WQW
.W.

Advantages: The roach queen can't escape its prison and nothing can enter that square while also removing the unpleasant side-effect of the player getting trapped on the force arrow. Up to 4 roaches can be spawned each cycle. (Observe that each version requires a 3x3 room area.)

I'll come up with more as I think of them. Share your own puzzle widgets here!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-09-2006 04:33 PM]

eytanz
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Yeah, that's a cool configuration - but we won't be able to use it in 2.0 because the ortho squares are delayed, though...

My next version of the bomb level will use tar and bombs as a way to get people to do things in certain order; I wrote an explanation but it turned out very long and complicated for something that's rather simple to see once you see the room in action, so you'll have to wait for the weekend when I release additional rooms.


____________________________
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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-09-2006 04:33 PM]

mrimer
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eytanz wrote:
Yeah, that's a cool configuration - but we won't be able to use it in 2.0 because the ortho squares are delayed, though...

Sorry, that was an oversight on my part. Ortho squares will be included. They'll possibly be introduced along with rattlesnakes, although that's not definite.

My next version of the bomber hold will use tar and bombs as a way to get people to do things in certain order; I wrote an explanation but it turned out very long and complicated for something that's rather simple to see once you see the room in action, so you'll have to wait for the weekend when I release additional rooms.

Wow, this sounds neat.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

eytanz
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mrimer wrote:
Sorry, that was an oversight on my part. Ortho squares will be included. They'll possibly be introduced along with rattlesnakes, although that's not definite.

Cool. They're not my favourite room element, but they are a very simple one, and they won't add much to the learning curve, so I think that's a good choice.

That said, maybe introduce them earlier? They could fit in with the Wubba level, since puzzles with Wubbas where you can't move as freely to evade them come to mind, plus wubbas are one of the less versatile monsters so adding something too them makes sense IMO.

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trick
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Wubbas can get stuck on corners:

####    # = wall / other obstacle
WB #    W = Wubba
## #    B = Beethro
## #

In this situation, if Beethro go SE, the Wubba will get stuck. In the Wubba "maze" in my level, I used something like this to force Beethro to bring a following Wubba around corners:

###o    # = wall / other obstacle
d  #    o = orb
## #    d/D = open/closed door (or vice versa)
##D#

This way Beethro has to go into the corner, and he can't use his sword to keep the Wubba away. The Wubba will go towards Beethro and is free to walk diagonally the next step.

Edit: This doesn't work in this case:

####o      ####o      ####o      ####/
W-B #      Wd  #      Wd  /      WD B#
### #  ->  ##-B#  ->  ###B#  ->  ### #
###D#      ###D#      ###D#      ###d#
### #      ### #      ### #      ### #

If this case shouldn't be allowed, you can do this instead:

###1   a,b,c: open door
a b#   A,B,C: closed door
#2 #   1: orb, toggle a and c
##C#   2: orb, close b

A little more involved, but it works. This has the side-effect of creating traps, though (since the wubba blocks the way back you can't get to orbs that open door b).

To give the player a chance to get out of the trap, we can do this:

3###1
 a b#
##2 #   3,4: open b
###C#
### 4

As long as the player doesn't rotate the sword before getting in reach of an opening orb for b, the Wubba won't block it.

- Gerry

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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-09-2006 04:34 PM]

AlefBet
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Here's another puzzle widget. Sometimes I want a fuse to be lightable by a bomb (as part of a prolonged timing chain reaction), but I don't want Beethro to be able to light it himself. All I have to do is create a loop on the end, and there's no tip for Beethro to light. E.g.:

@ o
+
+
+++++  o
   ++  @
       +
       +
     | +
     B

+ = fuse
@ = bomb
o = orb
B = Beethro

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

mrimer
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Puzzle widget:

I had to figure out a way, in a general room configuration, to place an orb such that Halph can't be allowed to hit it, but Beethro can. I at last realized this can be accomplished by placing the orb on the far side of a tunnel, which Halph can't go through.

(I'm guessing this will raise the old question, "Hey! Why can't Halph/Slayer/etc go through tunnels?" At present I prefer it this way, but if there are compelling puzzle reasons to allow it then it would be possible to change for now. I can't think of any, though, except, "It would be cool".)

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-09-2006 04:35 PM]

mrimer
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Bumped.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Swivel
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I have two "Maximum efficiency" widgets.

If you want the most roaches for the least amount of squares, you can do something like this:

....
.QQ.
.QQ.
....

Each queen has an arrow pointing towards the middle of the figure. In addition, the whole thing is surrounded by orthosquares.

This produces a 66% amount of efficiency, or 12 roaches per 16 squares.

Another unused shape would be this one:

*
|Q
+-*

The lines are walls and the asteriks are orthosquares. This setup takes up 9 squares, but 5 roaches are made every spawn.

For a mean, green blue, tar baby machine, try this setup:

 @
 TT@
@TT
  @

T is tar; an at sign (@) is a wall. This makes 8 babies with only 4 surrounding walls -- not a bad amount of efficiency!

Mr. Imer wrote:
Bumped

Really. What did you bump? Are you okay?

Oneiromancer
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Swivel wrote:
Mr. Imer wrote:
Bumped

Really. What did you bump? Are you okay? Just in case you weren't being sarcastic...read the edited-in text at the beginning of the first post...

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

mrimer
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lol

That's Mister Mr. Imer to you

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

trick
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I'd just like to point out that the Wubba-round-the-corner post above was written before the introduction of bombs . If someone wants to use this, it works much better if you add a bomb to the original example, like this:

###o    # = wall / other obstacle
d  #    o = orb
#b #    d/D = open/closed door (or vice versa), toggled by orb
##D#    b = bomb

Now Beethro's sword can't touch the bomb square (or it goes boom), so the Wubba will always be able to follow him around the corner.

- Gerry

Rabscuttle
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Here's a simple idea - commentary as a reward for people who have mastered the hold.
Master Wall + scroll or
Master Wall + "Wait for Beethro"

Swivel
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Does anyone have a good, no-scripting, non-monster widget that defines the number of times an orb can be hit? For example, suppose that you have a setup where a fuse is on a closed yellow door. There is a pit where the fuse leaves the yellow door. Thus, if an orb toggles the door two times, the fuse cannot be lit.

If there any way to have consequences for an orb that is hit 3 or more times? After all, an orb does not contain "complex intructions." Scripting is too obvious, monsters cannot be allowed. So is it possible?

Doom
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Swivel wrote:
Does anyone have a good, no-scripting, non-monster widget that defines the number of times an orb can be hit?

Yes. It's possible with those requirements.

Here's an example of a situation in which the orb can be hit up to 10 times. Force arrows and smaller amount of bombs can be used to fit it in much smaller space.

# = wall
F = fuse (goes over walls)
B = bomb
O = orb

     F
 ####F####
FFB##B##BFF
 ## # # ##
FFB     BFF
 ##  O  ##
FFB     BFF
 ## # # ##
FFB##B##BFF
 ####F####
     F

Swivel
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Thanks, Doom. I stand in awe of your Doominess.

However, leave it to me to explain things incoherently. I was wondering if there was a situation where Beethro could hit the orb as many times as he wants to, but if it goes past a certain amount of hits then he's somehow stuck. Trapdoors surrounding an orb, then, would not qualify. Does that make sense? I shouldn't be up at this God-forsaken hour, anyway.

Off to bed... (Yeah, right. More DROD! It is the weekend...)

Rabscuttle
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Does a character who doesn't do anything count as no scripting? And does it matter if it's very annoying?

--

1. Set up a queen running along a yellow door similar to to this room.

2. Add a sworded character who does nothing but hit an orb that closes the queen's door.

3. Make the restricted orb open the queen's door.

4. Whenever Beethro hits the orb, the queen will advance one square. Hit the orb too many times and she escapes past the arrow

--

You can almost do this with the Slayer or a decoy, except that they always move straight after Beethro, so the door would never be open when it is the queen's turn to move.

---

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 01-14-2006 07:40 AM]

eytanz
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File: Orb counter.hold (894 bytes)
Downloaded 69 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's a way to do it without any characters. It's difficult to explain in prose, though, so I'm attaching a small demo hold. You can hit the orb in question 7 times but not more.

Ok, Rabscuttle posted while I was finishing this post, but the principle is basically the same (except for no characters). My method just takes advantage of the fact you can have adjacent diagonal doors. It won't work in DROD:AE, though.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

---

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-14-2006 07:45 AM]

Rabscuttle
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Yeah, that's much simpler (and less noisy).

Doom
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File: Limited orb.hold (820 bytes)
Downloaded 70 times.
License: Public Domain

Swivel wrote:
Does anyone have a good, no-scripting, non-monster widget that defines the number of times an orb can be hit?

Yeah, it would've been easy to think of ways to do it with the use of monsters.

I was wondering if there was a situation where Beethro could hit the orb as many times as he wants to, but if it goes past a certain amount of hits then he's somehow stuck.

I've got one more. A hold file attached.

You can hit the orb on the left up to 7 times if you want to reach the stairs.

Edit: Removed some force arrows from the room that weren't doing really any good and fixed it so that you can hit the orb less than 7 times to reach the stairs. Also, added one more orb to prevent you from hitting the orb twice to make the mimic not move.

Edit2: Uploaded the correct version :/

The biggest weakness of this is probably that it's not too simple...

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[Last edited by Doom at 08-24-2007 09:29 PM : ninjaish edit to correct an old typo I don't make anymore]

eytanz
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Doom wrote:

Swivel wrote:
Does anyone have a good, no-scripting, non-monster widget that defines the number of times an orb can be hit?

Yeah, it would've been easy to think of ways to do it with the use of monsters.

Hmm... Missed that - but then that's a bit of a tight restriction. I can see why avoiding scripting is a good idea (since scripting is invisible to the player), but is there a strong reason to design monsterless widgets? Or was the question purely academic?

I was wondering if there was a situation where Beethro could hit the orb as many times as he wants to, but if it goes past a certain amount of hits then he's somehow stuck.

I've got one more. A hold file attached.

You can hit the orb on the left up to 7 times if you want to reach the stairs. (You can strike the orb multiple times in a row, though. There might be a way to make an orb that can be hit only once per going through the path as well.)

Actually, in this design you *must* hit the orb exactly 7 times. So it's a more demanding counter than what seems to have been requested.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

---

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-14-2006 01:51 PM]

Doom
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eytanz wrote:
Actually, in this design you *must* hit the orb exactly 7 times. So it's a more demanding counter than what seems to have been requested.

Whoops, now I forgot that! It's just a little change, though. It's now fixed.

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[Last edited by Doom at 01-14-2006 02:35 PM]

Swivel
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Eytanz, the question was academic. I'm pretty sure that I, or maybe the Caravel Team, might use this someday, but for now it's theoretical.

I guess that the highly utopian orb I dreamed about is impossible. I was thinking about an orb that you could have in the open that could somehow be restricted by its doors. I'm convinced that this is impossible without another moving element, but that's fine by me. There are many things man cannot yet do (in DROD architecture). Also, Doom, your design forces Beethro to hit the orb for 0, 2, 4, or 6 turns. This is because the red door alternates. If you added more yellow doors, the required hits would go up by two. It's an interesting concept: an orb that must be hit an even number of times. I'll have to think about this one.

____________________________
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-Anonymous

Doom
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Swivel wrote:
Also, Doom, your design forces Beethro to hit the orb for 0, 2, 4, or 6 turns. This is because the red door alternates. If you added more yellow doors, the required hits would go up by two. It's an interesting concept: an orb that must be hit an even number of times. I'll have to think about this one.

Noo.... I made the changes, but uploaded a wrong version! There shouldn't be ANY arrows in the door-mimic passage. So it works with any amount of orb hitting. The correct version is now in the same old post.

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[Last edited by Doom at 01-14-2006 08:09 PM]

Rabscuttle
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I think if you want to limit the number of times the orb can be hit, then in a practical sense it's irrelevant whether or not you can keep hitting it after the required number of times.

If you relax the restrictions a little, here are some other solutions:

---

Take the orb that you can't hit twice (by fuse cutting) and use it multiple times (copying its actions, except for the fuse cutting door). That's not 4 orbs, it's a 2x2 SUPER ORB!

---

You put the orb in a room. Use trapdoors to restrict the number of times the room can be entered. Use bombs to restrict the player to only hitting the orb once in the room (by blocking the exit from the room if they are in long enough to hit the orb twice)

Sendy
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I wanted to make a passage that brained monsters would go down but Beethro couldn't, and the best way to do that is make your passage and put 3 or 4 bombs with fuses which are as short as possible. That way you are blown up instantly if you try to go down it. Is there a more elegant way than this?

Sendy

p.s. Excellent thread by the way. I'd give it mod points if I had any.

Doom
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Sendy wrote:
I wanted to make a passage that brained monsters would go down but Beethro couldn't, and the best way to do that is make your passage and put 3 or 4 bombs with fuses which are as short as possible. That way you are blown up instantly if you try to go down it. Is there a more elegant way than this?

The single trapdoor on a narrow passage with no way back for beethro if he crosses trick? What about the evil eye + force arrow trap with line-of-sight crossing the forbidden-for-Beethro route? Maybe 2 evil eyes on a passage looking at the same tile, so you can't walk past them without finding a way behind them? There are fairly many ways to accomplish that.

You made me remember to change one small thing in my hold, by the way.

Chaco
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The single trapdoor trick doesn't work as well because Beethro can just step onto it and back, blocking the passage and then soldiering on.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Doom
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Chaco wrote:
The single trapdoor trick doesn't work as well because Beethro can just step onto it and back, blocking the passage and then soldiering on.

Depending on the room, it may or may not work... You may trap monsters behind the trapdoor for good, for example.

If you know what you're doing, it's not a bad way to do it. I used this twice in one room of my upcoming hold.

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[Last edited by Doom at 01-15-2006 01:11 AM]

Sendy
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I used the trapdoor for this in my latest demo too.

Sendy