calamarain
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I know that people aren't fond of orb puzzles. However, a variation.

What are people's thoughts on orb puzzles with logic? e.g. I have designed a room (not required to complete the hold, don't worry) with a grid of orbs, only certain ones must be struck to open the room.

This on its own would be offensive.

However, I have provided a series of scrolls, each with clues about the arrangement of orbs that must be struck, like a logical riddle. Examples "The first row contains only one orb that must be struck", "Either all of the corners must be struck or none of them must be".

Is this more acceptable? (this is a secret room, not a main room, remember)

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Kevin_P86
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I think this would be fine - I personally enjoy solving that type of logic puzzles, so it would be welcomed by me, anyways.

However, perhaps I should point out that I VERY MUCH require that such puzzles have ONE UNIQUE solution. I don't enjoy trying to find A solution. I enjoy trying to find THE solution. And besides - I figure if it's properly designed (solvable by logic), then there should never be more than one solution. But that's just me.

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Syntax
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I've started using michthro's orb solver when I'm presented wiht more than 4 orbs. However, if there is a logical solution, I'll gladly work it out in my mind

calamarain
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
I think this would be fine - I personally enjoy solving that type of logic puzzles, so it would be welcomed by me, anyways.

However, perhaps I should point out that I VERY MUCH require that such puzzles have ONE UNIQUE solution. I don't enjoy trying to find A solution. I enjoy trying to find THE solution. And besides - I figure if it's properly designed (solvable by logic), then there should never be more than one solution. But that's just me.

I can guarantee that each of the orb puzzles I have designed will have exactly one solution.

The trick is making sure that the clues can only lead to one solution - if the clues can lead to twenty possible solution candidates, then they're not that much use.

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Syntax
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In that case, it sounds like a good orb puzzle

calamarain
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Syntax wrote:
In that case, it sounds like a good orb puzzle

Such a thing exist?

Making an orb puzzle with one solution is easy provided you only use the Toggle function It's making the clues that's the challenge.

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TFMurphy
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calamarain wrote:
Making an orb puzzle with one solution is easy provided you only use the Toggle function :) It's making the clues that's the challenge.

Not true.

Depending on the configuration, it's possible for many of these types of puzzles to have a certain non-zero configurations that do not affect the original state: that is, when you hit these combinations of orbs, you're back to where you started.

That, combined with how toggling works, means that there can be multiple solutions, and quite possibly even faster solutions than the originally intended one.

Not all orb configurations lead to this, but some famous puzzles do have these. The basic variant of the one you used in "that secret room" in Witherwood Castle that only affects the cells orthogonally adjacent to each cell does have this (depending on the size of the board), so any puzzle that used this variant may have multiple solutions. (Fortunately, the puzzle you used in that case does have a unique solution)

In summary, don't assume that just making a toggle puzzle in this manner will make your solution the only intended one. It really doesn't work like that.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 09-06-2007 06:25 AM]

calamarain
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You're quite right, my maths was screwed up. Certain cases (e.g. variants of the classic Lights Out puzzle) definitely have this - there might be more than one minimal solution depending on the configuration (I use the word minimal since in a pure toggle puzzle, striking an orb twice is the same as not striking it at all, whatever order you do it in)

Interesting that you refer the room that way. It *was* an evil room, wasn't it? The orb puzzles in this level are going to be even crueler and more unsolvable by orb means... with one big exception - there will be logical scroll-provided clues to which orbs are the correct ones.

I cannot guarantee that there will not be multiple solutions in this case.

However, I can guarantee (from much work with the clues) that there will only be one solution that can be deduced from the clues, even though other solutions and patterns of orbs might exist, there'll only be one solution from following the clues.

That's technically multiple-solutions, is that a problem under the circumstances?

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Syntax
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TFMurphy wrote:
In summary, don't assume that just making a toggle puzzle in this manner will make your solution the only intended one. It really doesn't work like that.

I do believe calamarain was speaking of a "one solution only" orb puzzle for his next intended hold, whilst using clues to help aid in tackling the logical problem itself. And I'm sure he knows that toggle orb puzzle solutions aren't the exclusive answer when it comes to orb room possibilities (regardless of order). You have done a lot for these forums and the game, but please respect the insight of others.

[EDIT]

And unfortunate post-collision, but I look forward to calamarain's unique attempt at combining orb puzzles with logic deduction.

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[Last edited by Syntax at 09-06-2007 06:56 AM]

calamarain
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Syntax wrote:
I do believe calamarain was speaking of a "one solution only" orb puzzle for his next intended hold, whilst using clues to help aid in tackling the logical problem itself. And I'm sure he knows that toggle orb puzzle solutions aren't the exclusive answer when it comes to orb room possibilities (regardless of order). You have done a lot for these forums and the game, but please respect the insight of others.

Actually, it was more of a linguistic confusion. He was quite right about toggle puzzles sometimes having multiple solutions, and I was wrong.

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TFMurphy
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calamarain wrote:
:P Interesting that you refer the room that way. It *was* an evil room, wasn't it? :) The orb puzzles in this level are going to be even crueler and more unsolvable by orb means... with one big exception - there will be logical scroll-provided clues to which orbs are the correct ones.

You're talking to someone who loves Nurikabe and other such logic puzzles of that ilk; I'm not worried ^_^ I referred to the room in that way simply because it was the fastest way to indicate which I was talking about without really spoiling it.

calamarain wrote:
I cannot guarantee that there will not be multiple solutions in this case.

Not a problem, so long as you realise it. It can be an entertaining optimisation puzzle to find alternate solutions that lead to a faster time - I know I've enjoyed solving some of the rooms in the Palace of Puzzles via both the intended way, and then looking for shortcuts.

calamarain wrote:
That's technically multiple-solutions, is that a problem under the circumstances? :)

Not to me. And if the logical deduction part only has a unique solution, I imagine that'll be fine for most of the puzzle veterans.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 09-06-2007 07:13 AM]

Syntax
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I apologise... I thought the idea was to create a variable toggle/open/close multiple orb room with only one solution, yet easy to solve with the hints given.

calamarain
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Syntax wrote:
I apologise... I thought the idea was to create a variable toggle/open/close multiple orb room with only one solution, yet easy to solve with the hints given.

Who said anything about easy to solve?

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Chaco
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Personally, I'm not usually very fond of logic puzzles like the type you are describing, but I think they're preferable to ones where the puzzle is just there and you have to solve it.

My favorite room with an orb puzzle is definitely Simon's Dungeon : First Level - Roach Slayer : 1 South, 2 East - there is a lynchpin that, while at the start is hidden to the player, after the crucial moment of discovery the room is a piece of cake.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-06-2007 11:04 AM]

calamarain
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Chaco wrote:
Personally, I'm not usually very fond of logic puzzles like the type you are describing, but I think they're preferable to ones where the puzzle is just there and you have to solve it.

Don't worry, they're all behind the Master Wall

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