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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Doctor E. Will's Mega Complex (different themes)
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8.6/10 (46 votes)
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Author Name:Zch and Kallor
Submitted By:Kallor
Hold Name:Doctor E. Will's Mega Complex
Theme:different themes
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:8
Number of Rooms:227
Number of Monsters:3501
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
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Hold Karma:15 (+15 / -0)
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Doctor E. Will's Mega Complex (+1)  
In 1S2E you can kill the guards. This lets you kill the guards in 1S3E. Neither of these affects the rest of the level.
05-14-2007 at 03:27 PM
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Tahnan
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quote:
Kallor wrote:
However, if you find a bug, it should be quite obvious why you can't proceed, just conquer the rooms as they are supposed to (I think it should be trivial to see if the solution is unintended, comprare it to solutions of the previous rooms with the same theme).
Unfortunately, as I said, I genuinely thought that killing the guards and escaping through the green door was the intended solution, since I couldn't see how to hit the orb that's part of the correct solution. Nor was it obvious why I couldn't proceed, since I'd done a full go-round of the sewers before re-entering the room and being puzzled by the lack of Halph.

Meanwhile, I'm getting closer to conquering this thing. Man, it's big. And very pretty, I should add. And big.

I have been a little frustrated by the fact that, while the hold is in general backtrackable, the secret rooms aren't always so: at least one of them (plus the scroll mentioned by jbluestein) requires having left a tar mother alive. It was also frustrating to spend perhaps an hour wandering around a level and beating helplessly against the walls, certain that there had to be secret rooms in certain places, only to find that they were only enterable from a different staircase on a different level. To some degree, these things can be called "clever"; to some degree, they can be called "infuriating"; and I fear for me, the latter outweighs the former.
05-14-2007 at 06:16 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Tahnan wrote:
quote:
Kallor wrote:
However, if you find a bug, it should be quite obvious why you can't proceed, just conquer the rooms as they are supposed to (I think it should be trivial to see if the solution is unintended, comprare it to solutions of the previous rooms with the same theme).
Unfortunately, as I said, I genuinely thought that killing the guards and escaping through the green door was the intended solution, since I couldn't see how to hit the orb that's part of the correct solution. Nor was it obvious why I couldn't proceed, since I'd done a full go-round of the sewers before re-entering the room and being puzzled by the lack of Halph.

Meanwhile, I'm getting closer to conquering this thing. Man, it's big. And very pretty, I should add. And big.

I have been a little frustrated by the fact that, while the hold is in general backtrackable, the secret rooms aren't always so: at least one of them (plus the scroll mentioned by jbluestein) requires having left a tar mother alive. It was also frustrating to spend perhaps an hour wandering around a level and beating helplessly against the walls, certain that there had to be secret rooms in certain places, only to find that they were only enterable from a different staircase on a different level. To some degree, these things can be called "clever"; to some degree, they can be called "infuriating"; and I fear for me, the latter outweighs the former.


Making secret rooms backtrackable hasn't ever really been part of the mandate. At least one secret room in JtRH can only be reached from an unsolved required room.

Hunting for secret rooms is definitely painful, though, particularly when not all rooms on a level are directly accessible from that level.

Josh

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05-14-2007 at 06:53 PM
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Kallor
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About bugs: I'm totally devastated... It looks like you can kill at least some guards in every central (puzzle) room of Sewers. Guess I've been a "little" careless.
Apparently Sewers was just too ambitious an idea for me to handle properly. I still didn't find all of the bugs you guys mentioned (1S1E and 1S2E), from which I can only conclude that I'm still a novice player :weep
About secrets: All of the things you mentioned were done on purpose. In all of the holds I've mastered finding the secret rooms was practically no trouble at all. Restoring afterwards is an easy way to find every secret room. So easy that they are not really "secret" anymore, and players expect to find them all. Since they are called "secret", they should be hidden, and there shouldn't be just one orthodox way to hide them. We used our (new? or just less used for a reason?) ways to hide them well. So that only some players, not all, could find the hidden levels or master the hold. If everyone is a master, nobody is.

-Kallor

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[Last edited by Kallor at 05-14-2007 09:28 PM]
05-14-2007 at 08:59 PM
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Chaco
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I disagree. Finding the secret rooms should be as easy as possible - hiding rooms from the player just causes frustration, and unless it's fun to try and find them, it's just not kind.

I think that instead the secret rooms themselves should be challenging and offer a new, more difficult, or more ingenious puzzle than perhaps the rest of the level has to offer.

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05-14-2007 at 10:25 PM
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Ezlo
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I disagree with you disagreement! :D For me, one of the best things in this hold is finding the ingeniously hidden secret rooms! I hope they are including in future holds made by Kallor!
05-14-2007 at 10:27 PM
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Tahnan
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quote:
Kallor wrote:
About bugs: I'm totally devastated... It looks like you can kill at least some guards in every central (puzzle) room of Sewers. Guess I've been a "little" careless.
Apparently Sewers was just too ambitious an idea for me to handle properly.
But it was a really cool idea, and for the most part it's very well executed. Don't let a couple of bugs get you down.
quote:
About secrets: All of the things you mentioned were done on purpose. In all of the holds I've mastered finding the secret rooms was practically no trouble at all. Restoring afterwards is an easy way to find every secret room. So easy that they are not really "secret" anymore, and players expect to find them all. Since they are called "secret", they should be hidden, and there shouldn't be just one orthodox way to hide them. We used our (new? or just less used for a reason?) ways to hide them well. So that only some players, not all, could find the hidden levels or master the hold. If everyone is a master, nobody is.

On these points, alas, I can't agree. I don't believe the goal of a hold constructor should be to prevent people from finishing the hold; the goal should be to create a challenge, but a surmountable one.

Perhaps even more to the point, though: as a solver, I want to be challenged, but I don't want to be frustrated. Spending an hour accomplishing nothing on a level because the way to the secret rooms was via another level, that's frustrating. To reach a point near the end of the game only to find that I made a mistake by solving a room at the start of the game, that's frustrating. And frustration isn't fun.
05-14-2007 at 10:30 PM
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Remlin
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In case anyone's getting the wrong idea from the talk about bugs - this is still an excellent hold, sewers included. Maybe they're not playing out exactly like you guys planned with the guards being unkillable, but I didn't even realize that was a bug until the guys in the secret room told me. I'm willing to believe the guards I killed are just being replaced by reinforcements in the next room. Excepting 1N1E, it didn't negatively effect the level for me at all.

I was fully prepared to abandon the hold without mastering it if I couldn't find all the secrets, and ironically that probably made it easier to master it - I avoided the frustration of searching the wrong level for a secret entrance by the simple trick of giving up almost immediately and moving to the next level. Anyway, it's up to the architect to decide what purpose he wants his secret rooms to serve, and I approve of this hold's use of them.

In case I haven't made it obvious yet, I like this hold and recommend it. Far too few checkpoints and far too many lights out puzzles, but otherwise a great piece of work with lots of variety, interesting themes, good writing, and enough to keep me interested right through to the end even with the huge size.
05-14-2007 at 10:39 PM
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silver
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"places on a level you can only get to from another level" has been used in several other holds, even the official JtRH hold... so I don't spend hours on a level searching for a secret room. I either find it quickly, or move on and assume that I can either pick it up from another level, or pick it up when I finish the hold. I think the "bug" isn't with the hold authors, but with the hold players who are back in the pre-2.0 mindset :)

one of the nicer things about this hold was that I could backtrack to previous levels, so I think my mastery of the hold is actually a continuous game (i.e. I didn't restore to secrets, I went back to them), which I find aesthetically more pleasing.

as for missing one lousy scroll because you conquered a room "early"... that's really nothing to really complain about (maybe a small gripe, but not a, say, fun-point-costing level of pain) (in fact, all the scroll essentially says is "congrats, you found the super tricky scroll") (besides, it was pretty obvious when I entered the room that there would be another entrance to get to the other side and the scroll. I could see it in the room layout. so I just left).



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[Last edited by silver at 05-14-2007 11:43 PM]
05-14-2007 at 11:42 PM
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Tahnan
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quote:
silver wrote:
I think the "bug" isn't with the hold authors, but with the hold players who are back in the pre-2.0 mindset :)


Yeah, well, [place insult here] you too! :-) The thing is, there were all these broken walls that made it look like the room should have been accessible.

quote:
one of the nicer things about this hold was that I could backtrack to previous levels, so I think my mastery of the hold is actually a continuous game (i.e. I didn't restore to secrets, I went back to them), which I find aesthetically more pleasing.


Whoa, what? My whole point was that there were secrets you couldn't backtrack to. Granted, I backtracked as much as I could, but wasn't quite as continuous as one might have hoped.

quote:
as for missing one lousy scroll because you conquered a room "early"... that's really nothing to really complain about (maybe a small gripe, but not a, say, fun-point-costing level of pain)
I never said it was a fun-point-costing level. I mean, I gave this a 9/10 on fun regardless (and that point wasn't for the scroll).
05-15-2007 at 12:24 AM
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zex20913
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A brief comment on the secrets hiding thing:

I agree that too many people rely solely on the crumbly walls. New methods, while they may not always be enjoyed, are essential, as it is indeed too easy to simply restore and seek. Especially with the new "clicky!" functionality of TCB.

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05-15-2007 at 12:51 AM
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Ezlo
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Trivial Solution in Three Times as Fun (1s/1e,2e,3e North Entrance.)

Click here to view the secret text

05-15-2007 at 01:00 AM
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Ezlo
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The games says I've mastered the hold, and I believe I found all the secret rooms. But I'm left without a master wall and rooms not found in the MMM. Can someone PM me a hint please?

EDIT: Done and done. Thanks Jbluestein!

I'm giving this a 10 fun and six brain rating. A classic that goes right up there with Perfection, MetDROiD Echoes, and A Quiet Place. Kallor is almost guaranteed a win at the "Best Novice Architect Award" this year! Or a hopefully new category called "Best JTRH-style Hold" or both. But Kallor, make more, make more! :)

[Last edited by Ezlo at 05-15-2007 02:26 AM]
05-15-2007 at 02:16 AM
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Blondbeard
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Very nice (= a rating of 9)! I have hardly ever seen something as original as The Sewers in DROD. Although it feels a bit bad with two levels I haven't acsessed :( I'm too lazy to make a long search, but maybe someone could PM me about them?

Edit: Thanks for the PMs, guys!

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 05-18-2007 03:30 PM]
05-17-2007 at 05:40 PM
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schep
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I found one optional level, the Chessboard (and PMed a hint to Blondbeard), but I could use some help tracking down the other too. Also, and maybe related, I seem to lack the seventh Top Secret Hidden Mystery Number....

05-17-2007 at 10:55 PM
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larrymurk
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Congratulations architects Zch and Kallor!

Doctor E. Will's Complex is a masterpiece in my opinion.

Good Points:
1. The level artwork is awesome.
2. There are a great number of good puzzle rooms. The sewer level is unique and inspired.
3. The maziness and use of secret passages was clever (and more people probably enjoy this than not?).
4. Immense hold.

Criticisms you've already heard:
1. Lights out puzzles- OK, it's nice that you can emulate many things using DROD. That doesn't mean it's fun. Does anyone want to solve a 10x10 lights out puzzle in DROD? I don't think so. Remember in normal lights out you can quickly hit any button while in DROD you need Beethro to wall to each orb..
2. Checkpoints- Unfortunately in DROD the responsibility of placing checkpoints is put upon the architect. I think it's better to err on the side of generosity with checkpoints.
3. Maziness- I put this in good points above also because I'm sure many people loved this. I just have to say tons of secret passages and passages that will never be reached after completing rooms with tar mothers just frustrate and annoy me.

OVERALL:
Fantastic effort and a fantastic hold!

[Last edited by larrymurk at 05-19-2007 10:53 PM]
05-19-2007 at 10:51 PM
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iamyum
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How does one go into the center of voluntary work? Also, I cannot go into the left side of the credit room, and I'm guessing there's something hidden beneath the mud (like stairs...). Finally, I've "freed" those "villagers" in voluntary work. Is it possible for me to enter the "village"?? Or is it just a teaser?
05-25-2007 at 03:18 AM
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schep
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quote:
iamyum wrote:
How does one go into the center of voluntary work? Also, I cannot go into the left side of the credit room, and I'm guessing there's something hidden beneath the mud (like stairs...). Finally, I've "freed" those "villagers" in voluntary work. Is it possible for me to enter the "village"?? Or is it just a teaser?

Click here to view the secret text

05-25-2007 at 04:42 AM
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iamyum
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Thanks Schep. After tremendous struggle, I have finally conquered all the skipped lights out secret rooms and ran through the master rooms. What a sense of accomplishment to visit every single room in this vast hold. +1 to hold kama.

[Last edited by iamyum at 05-26-2007 05:19 PM]
05-26-2007 at 05:18 PM
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tokyokid
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Mastered! This is a truely excellent hold. From the winding maze of choosing the right entrance of the MMM, to the double run through of The Sewers, I have enjoyed every minute of this hold. And I hope everyone who hasn't played this yet, or have gotten past the second room (quite a lot you know!) will play it now. And I hope that we will see a sequel.

This hold has to be one of my favorites yet. Up there with MetDRiOD: Echos and Great Uncle Yurgess' Hold. With a solid 10 ratiting and 5.5 brains, this is a great hold!

But, one think naggs at me:
Click here to view the secret text


But, a very good job guys! I'll keep me eye open for you in the future...
05-26-2007 at 08:29 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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I seem to be missing one secret room in Happiness is a state of mind. Could someone point me in the right direction?

Edit : Nevermind. I found it. Great hold by the way :)

Steve.

[Last edited by Stephen4Louise at 06-08-2007 02:39 PM]
06-08-2007 at 02:32 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Stephen4Louise wrote:
I seem to be missing one secret room in Happiness is a state of mind. Could someone point me in the right direction?



The room you're missing is
Click here to view the secret text


Josh

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06-08-2007 at 02:44 PM
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spudsfan
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I know it's been said (many times many ways), but a GREAT hold. Visually impressive, some great ideas, and even though it entailed a lot of running around and backtracking, I didn't mind it much. And challenging, but most of the time, not frustratingly difficult.

My one minor quibble was with the Sewers, on 1S1E. Up to that point, I'd been told that you shouldn't kill the guards. But I'm not really sure you could get through that without killing some of them. (OK, I'm not really sure that I could. ;) )

[Last edited by spudsfan at 06-30-2007 07:27 AM]
06-30-2007 at 07:26 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
spudsfan wrote:
My one minor quibble was with the Sewers, on 1S1E. Up to that point, I'd been told that you shouldn't kill the guards. But I'm not really sure you could get through that without killing some of them. (OK, I'm not really sure that I could. ;) )


It can certainly be done. It's not essential that you leave all the guards alive, but it's quite possible to complete this room without killing any guards.

Josh

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06-30-2007 at 03:17 PM
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Rheb
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Arrrgh I have almost mastered the hold now... can someon please tell me how to get to the last secret room in The Misty Maze of Mystery, this is driving me mad...:(

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07-28-2007 at 12:50 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Rheb wrote:
Arrrgh I have almost mastered the hold now... can someon please tell me how to get to the last secret room in The Misty Maze of Mystery, this is driving me mad...:(


Which ones do you have already?

Josh

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07-28-2007 at 02:50 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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I bet Rheb is missing the same secret room that I had trouble with. It is accessed through another secret room. Look for crumbly walls in
Click here to view the secret text

07-28-2007 at 11:41 PM
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Rheb
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quote:
CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
I bet Rheb is missing the same secret room that I had trouble with. It is accessed through another secret room. Look for crumbly walls in
Click here to view the secret text



Thank you, though jbluesein already told me in a PM.

So: Mastered! This is a very good hold Zch and Kallor :)

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07-29-2007 at 08:29 PM
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Kitalarium
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Gentle Rabbit,

Thank you for this hint. It was very helpful, as I'd missed this room altogether on the first trip through this level.

Though now I am faced with another (somewhat frustrating) dilema... I can not seem to find the right restore points in the subsequent levels that will not also *undo* the solving of this secret room.

Please tell me that I do not have to repeat everything just because I missed this room the first time through! I had solved all that was possible in the next six levels! Honestly, as much as I would like to master this hold, I'm not sure I'd want to do all of that again.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can offer!

KitKat

quote:
CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
I bet Rheb is missing the same secret room that I had trouble with. It is accessed through another secret room. Look for crumbly walls in
Click here to view the secret text


01-29-2008 at 12:38 AM
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Chaco
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quote:
Kitalarium wrote:
Though now I am faced with another (somewhat frustrating) dilema... I can not seem to find the right restore points in the subsequent levels that will not also *undo* the solving of this secret room.



Don't worry about it - secrets count as conquered as long as you have them solved in *some* save game. You have that secret conquered permanently, so you can restore back to the furthest point you've gotten to and continue onwards.

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01-29-2008 at 12:39 AM
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