Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Forum Games : Nomic (The classic game of rule-modification.)
1
Page 2 of 5
345
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Sillyman
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 339
Registered: 09-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
And the proposal is closed. It passes, gaining 10 points. Next is Ravon's turn.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD

[Last edited by Sillyman at 04-12-2007 10:29 PM]
04-12-2007 at 10:29 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Alright then,

302: No rules may be enacted which limit or expect the use of mod-points in this thread. Mod-points are allowed in this thread only at the modders discretion, and must not be required or dis-allowed.

An example of a rule disallowed by 302 is something along the lines of, "all voters voting yes must mod up the original rule post."

NB: Rule 302 is allowed within itself because it does not govern the use of mod-points directly, but rather governs rules governing the use of mod-points, and is a kind of meta-moderation-rule. (Also, Godel, Escher, Bach is a great book... ;) )
04-12-2007 at 11:52 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
You might want to add something about not amending rules to the same effect, otherwise it's quite an effective workaround.
04-13-2007 at 12:08 AM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
"Mod points are allowed in this thread only at the modders discretion" scans strangely for me. I mean, the obvious error is that it's missing an approstrophe in "modders", but that doesn't affect how it scans.

I guess it's that I'm used to the phrase "things may be done entirely at such-and-so's discretion", but I'm not sure beyond the commonality of that idiom if there's a real semantic difference between putting "entirely" or "only" as the adverb (in this context, obviously :) ). I think the clause should read "Mod points may be used in this thread entirely at the modder's discretion"

Also, I'm pretty sure "disallowed" isn't hyphenated.



____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 04-13-2007 12:26 AM]
04-13-2007 at 12:24 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I'm not a big fan of this rule. On the one hand, people may not have a lot of mod points to spend, so may not be able to conform to the game. However, it seems... I don't know, somewhat limiting to the creative things that we can do. Though I can't think of anything in particular that I would want to do in this vein.

I agree that you need to add a "no amending" clause as well. However, I don't think amending a rule to require modding would be quite as effective as coppro claims it will be since it would take an extra turn (enact and then ammend) and would still require people to vote on it, but that's just my opinion.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
04-13-2007 at 01:29 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
stigant wrote:
I agree that you need to add a "no amending" clause as well. However, I don't think amending a rule to require modding would be quite as effective as coppro claims it will be since it would take an extra turn (enact and then ammend) and would still require people to vote on it, but that's just my opinion.

rules 201-209, 211-213, and 301 are open for ammending without an extra turn, and under Sillyman's interpretation of 103, you wouldn't have to relate the ammendment to the existing rule (I still disagree with him. rule 202 clearly states a turn consists of proposing one rule-change, and 103 defines a rule-change with an either/or definition, but we can save that argument for when we actually need it, since then we'll also have a clearly defined judge under 212).


____________________________
:yinyang
04-13-2007 at 02:08 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
If you disagree so much, invoke Judgement.
04-13-2007 at 02:23 AM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
silver wrote:
but we can save that argument for when we actually need it

as with the court system, an appropriate case has to be brought up for the contest to start.


____________________________
:yinyang
04-13-2007 at 02:48 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Sillyman
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 339
Registered: 09-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Sorry, I'll have to temporarily quit. I'll be absent for a while, and I don't have any points, so rather than delay the game, I shall officially quit. I will re-join the game by 301 when I come back.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD
04-13-2007 at 07:34 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
the game so far (since I can't edit Sillyman's post):
--------------------------------------
Players (By turn order):
Chaco: 5
Coppro: 10
Ravon: 11
silver: 12
Stigant: 0

we are still in the first complete circuit of turns.

rules only secreted because they're long, eh?

Immutable Rules

Click here to view the secret text


Mutable Rules - current count: 16

Click here to view the secret text


current status:
it is Stigant's turn. We are in "reasonable discussion period" for proposal 305.

Sillyman is barred from attempting to join again until May 15th.
Neathro is barred from attempting to join again until May 16th.


____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 05-04-2007 03:46 AM]
04-13-2007 at 07:43 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I should have written:


302: No rules may be enacted or ammended in order to limit or expect the use of mod-points in this thread. Mod-points are allowed in this thread if the modder sees fit, but must not be required or disallowed.


Better?

[Last edited by Ravon at 04-13-2007 09:57 PM : Thanks silver...]
04-13-2007 at 09:47 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Ravon wrote:
302: No rules may be enacted or amended in order to limit or expect the use of mod-points in this thread. Mod-points are allowed in this thread if the modder sees fit, and must not be required or disallowed.

not my submission, but may I suggest that "sees fit, and must not" should read "sees fit, but must not"?

(edit: removed incorrect spelling correction. bad me. bad, bad!)



____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 04-13-2007 10:01 PM]
04-13-2007 at 09:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
From a logical standpoint, "but" is usually equivalent to "and", and/but is used, semantically to emphasize that the second conjunct is a negative condition. For example: "All people who have finished JtRH but not TCB" would be the same group as "All people who have finished JtRH and not TCB". In other words, I think the wording is fine, though it wouldn't hurt to change it.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
04-13-2007 at 10:01 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I actually did change it, though I did not feel the need to bump the thread, or change anything else about my post.
04-14-2007 at 12:48 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I have no further discussion/debate. Ravon is the arbiter of when he's done waiting for other people to provide discussion/debate, but if the other 3 participants all say they're done, then we start voting anyway (well, that's 3 including me. and I said I'm done, so...)




____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 04-14-2007 01:51 AM]
04-14-2007 at 01:49 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Hrm. Sillyman's "forum adoption" changes to the rules allow for declaring a player absent after a week in order to skip their turn or their vote, but do not cover a limit for the "reasonable debate" period.


____________________________
:yinyang
04-16-2007 at 10:24 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I now open this rule for voting. Sorry for taking so long...
04-16-2007 at 09:29 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Vote yes.
04-16-2007 at 09:38 PM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
vote: yes

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
04-16-2007 at 09:50 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
I also vote yes.
interesting rules question: is submission equal to a 'yes' vote?, or are we waiting for Ravon again?

if Ravon has voted yes, then his score is: 302 - 291 = 11 * (4/4) = 11, and it is my turn to propose a rule change.

as a side note to Chaco: since your proposal to join the game was made before there existed a rule 301, it was ignored. you would need to (re-(*))submit it to have us vote on it.


(*) re-submit from your point of view. plain submit from the game point of view.


____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 04-16-2007 11:00 PM]
04-16-2007 at 10:49 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
The rules do not define what does constitute a vote, so it's up to our judgement, I guess. The following could be a vote for yes according to the rules:

I think that I should go make myself a TCB sandwich.
04-16-2007 at 11:14 PM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Um, that's clearly a 'no' vote. :-)

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
04-17-2007 at 04:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Sorry again, it seems at every turn that I'm holding this game up.
I vote yes, mostly to clear up confusion.
04-17-2007 at 09:35 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
No worries, mate. If you can't play often, try leaving posts with contingent actions, like "this is my proposal. if no one debates in 48 hours, it's my final proposal and I will vote yes." or "if fred's proposal doesn't change from the version I'm reading, I'll vote yes when he puts it to vote". just a thought.

I've edited http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=15031&page=1#177911 with the current status. My turn to hold up the game while I think about what to propose.



____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 04-17-2007 11:14 PM]
04-17-2007 at 11:13 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3772
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Curses, I was hoping to introduce my petition while voting was still taking place for something else, taking advantage of the "at any time" clause of rule 301. However, I am not willing to wait, but am still intrigued in this game, despite some occasional holdups.

I submit a petition to add myself to the game under rule 301, and vote yes, if applicable.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

04-18-2007 at 01:19 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
my turn is temporarily tabled whilst we vote on Chaco's admission.

I vote yes. Chaco's vote is irrelevant at this time, since he's not already playing :)


____________________________
:yinyang
04-18-2007 at 01:27 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
We vote on it as soon as silver finishes his turn.

EDIT: Okay. It doesn't say that we have to wait till the end of the current turn. Vote yes.

[Last edited by coppro at 04-18-2007 01:29 AM]
04-18-2007 at 01:28 AM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Ravon
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
Come on in! (I vote yes).
04-18-2007 at 02:39 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
that's a majority, stigant's vote is moot.

per 301, the turn order is:

Chaco: 0
Coppro: 10
Ravon: 11
silver: 0 <== we are here
(Chaco's extra "entrance" turn)
Stigant: 0


____________________________
:yinyang
04-18-2007 at 03:01 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Nomic (0)  
hmmm, tempted to vote no until after I've had a turn, but I don't want to be seen as a bad guy... He doesn't get any points for his petition being granted, does he? Assuming the answer is no, I'll vote yes.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
04-18-2007 at 03:02 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
1
Page 2 of 5
345
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Forum Games : Nomic (The classic game of rule-modification.)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.9
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.