starwed
Level: Delver
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Registered: 12-16-2006
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File: Quirks Mode.hold (12 KB)
Downloaded 117 times.
License: Public Domain

Updates
March 24: Hopefully fixed 3 unintended solutions.
April 11: Added makeshift second level; will be refactored to be a TCB hold.

Original message
This is the first level of a hold I've been working on. The basic story, although I haven't included any scripting yet: Beethro is hired to clear out a hold created by a mad-scientist type by the name of Dr. Quirk. It'll probably end up being 3 levels.

This first level is intended to be fairly easy, but hopefully emphasize some of the techniques you'll need for the harder levels. I'd especially like to know if any of the rooms seem to be out of line with the intended difficulty. (There's one I'm a bit worried about, but I'll let you guys make up your own minds on this.)

Please give it a try. (I've got a lot of individual rooms designed for the later levels, but have to somehow fit them together into a coherent whole... )

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[Last edited by starwed at 04-11-2007 08:22 PM : second level]

MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
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I have to say that the room Level 1 : 1N1W was really cool. I like the concept of it.

starwed
Level: Delver
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Most of the rooms are fine, but some need more checkpoints.

Any in particular? (I really wanted to minimize annoyance on the first level, so anything that's too irritating should be purged.)

I have to say that the room Level 1 : 1N1W was really cool. I like the concept of it.

Thanks! Hopefully you don't get sick of the concept on the later levels...

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

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File: QuirkDemos.rar (2.1 KB)
Downloaded 63 times.
License: Public Domain

This hold is looking GREAT to me.

I like the level layout
I like the room layouts
I like the puzzles
Adding the story elements will be a good bonus

I found the puzzles to be medium to hard mostly.

Room comments-

2N1E: Very well done.
1N1W: Good
1N: OK. Not sure what was intended. I ended up killing the snake w/ 1 goblin.
1N2E: OK
1W: fine
Entr: Fine
1E: Unintended solution? see demo
2E: Unsolved
1S1W: Bottom part good. Top part unintended solution? Can exit enclosure and draw monsters out easily.
1S: OK
1S1E: OK
1S2E: Unsolved
2S1W: OK, pretty easy.
2S: Unintended solution? see demo
2S1E: OK
2S2E: OK

Keep up the good work, I love it!

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2358
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I can't get 2N1E.
Is it even possible?

bobkberg
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 20
Registered: 11-27-2006
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Other folks don't seem to have had a problem with 2S, 2E, but I haven't been able to keep the guard out of the way. I'll try some searches.

Overall though, it's been a fun hold - and some serious challenges.

Bob

bdwing
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 288
Registered: 02-16-2003
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Overall, this is a nice little puzzle hold.

I, somehow, managed to do all the rooms except 2S1E and 2S2E.

In 2S1E I can get the guard to open the yellow door and to back up to the right side -- where he just wavers back and forth and refuses to come out and fight me. Perhaps this is a scripting error? Perhaps I just haven't mastered the technique needed here.

____________________________
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Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

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You need some clever manipulation of the orb you can hit at that point.

starwed
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 49
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In 2S1E I can get the guard to open the yellow door and to back up to the right side -- where he just wavers back and forth and refuses to come out and fight me. Perhaps this is a scripting error?

Just to be clear, the weird behavior of the guard isn't due to scripting. A guard will never let his sword touch a bomb, but since the pathmap can't really account for this, they can get stuck in places where they really should be able to get past. Closing the door means that no path can reach Beethro, so the guard abandons the pathmap and uses a more roach-like AI.

I think I've fixed all the unintended solutions found by larrymurk, but I can't be sure because I haven't been able to look at them yet! I don't have internet access at home, and stupidly forgot to actually save his demo file onto my USB drive once I downloaded it... but I did look at the rooms he mentioned, and found an unintended solution in all of them. Hopefully we found the same ones; if so they should (?) be fixed now.

larrymurk wrote: 1N: OK. Not sure what was intended. I ended up killing the snake w/ 1 goblin.

I think I'll just remove this "puzzle" and replace it with a more story related element.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

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I am still amazed newbies can make very hard rooms... >_> So hard I can't even solve them! I could not solve any of the rooms because they're too hard. I_i

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Insane
Level: Master Delver

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Nuntar wrote:
I've solved four of the rooms so far

So have I .
Waaay too hard for me.

-Insane

bwross
Level: Smiter
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Very nice work so far (I've gone completely through the old and new versions). There are only two rooms that stand out as particularly weak, 1N and 2S1W (1N2E involves a similar "shuffle monsters before opening" thing in a much tighter package... 2S1W only adds some basic goblin control).

The trick to 1N1W is definitely not something that should be overused... the scroll is a nice clue (and a dead give away to anyone who knows the related quirk). Of course, it is also introduced earlier in the level. I've seen some levels that are very sensitive to it and are a bit random as a result. However, I do like the way 1N1W makes very clean use of it... the orthogonal tiles are certainly a nice touch to help keep things clean and not chaotic.

About 1S1E, is the outer ring of roaches supposed to be trivial:



I still don't understand what the decoy potion is doing in 1E... I figure it's just there so you can kill the mimic afterwards (it you want to go south without worrying about the fuses).

About 1S2E:



Overall, some very nice "simple" puzzles... but only truly simple if you've run across the specific quirks involved before. Otherwise, this hold will be quite a learning experience (and certainly a worthwhile one).

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

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Man, how do you solve entrance??? Too complex for me.

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Citrus
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Jeff_Ray...
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nvm got it as I posted, along with a little number of rooms.

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tokyokid
Level: Smiter

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I'm just posting to say that 1W is ingenious. I never would have thought to solve it the way it was meant to be solved. (I killed the seep first). That is all.

starwed
Level: Delver
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bwross wrote: About 1S1E, is the outer ring of roaches supposed to be trivial

Yup, as long as you think about where you enter the room.

I still don't understand what the decoy potion is doing in 1E... I figure it's just there so you can kill the mimic afterwards (it you want to go south without worrying about the fuses).

That's exactly it. (If people think it's too confusing, I can just remove it.)

About 1S2E

tokyokid wrote: I'm just posting to say that 1W is ingenious. I never would have thought to solve it the way it was meant to be solved. (I killed the seep first). That is all.

Wait, does that mean you found a way to kill the seep first and still get past the wubba?

tokyokid
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starwed wrote:

tokyokid wrote: I'm just posting to say that 1W is ingenious. I never would have thought to solve it the way it was meant to be solved. (I killed the seep first). That is all.

Wait, does that mean you found a way to kill the seep first and still get past the wubba?

No, but that's the way I tried it the first time. When I discovered it was impossible to get past the wubba, I realized the seep had to die last.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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This is a really nice hold.

Like a few others, though, I'm stuck on 2S2E - I've tried all five monster orders (the sixth doesn't work because the goblin goes into the force arrow trap and shoves ahead in line) and I can't keep the guard from backswiping a monster.

2E (diamond-bombing the goblins) doesn't seem especially likely either, though it could just be me not going about it in the right fashion.

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Insane
Level: Master Delver

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File: screen.png (367.6 KB)
Downloaded 346 times.
License: Public Domain

I also can't get 2S 2E.
Any hints?

-Insane

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also need help with 1W.
I figure I have to get the seep to 1, but how?

Room image:

---

[Last edited by Insane at 03-25-2007 06:54 PM]

bwross
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Insane wrote:
I also can't get 2S 2E.
Any hints?

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also need help with 1W.
I figure I have to get the seep to 1, but how?

That's the spot you want. You just need to lure it to a position first where you can get enough time to run to a position where it can't get around the corner in time. Yeah, that's not much of a hint, but I'm sure you'll figure it out if you toy with it a bit... it doesn't require anything particularly obscure.

Insane
Level: Master Delver

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bwross wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

×Have you tried arranging things (and your approach) so that the guard can't even move before you enter? (I was additionally careful to keep him from turning due south, but I'm not sure that's actually required)

My best bet so far was this order:


If I do that, he doesn't do anything until I enter the chamber, whereupon he backtracks the goblin, and moves south, blocking me after two turns.

As for the seep, I've been toying around with all combinations I've found so far, no luck.

-Insane

bwross
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2E (diamond-bombing the goblins) doesn't seem especially likely either, though it could just be me not going about it in the right fashion.

You need to consider not only how the bombs interact with force arrows, but how movement occurs off and on of force arrows (particularly off of them). When you put the two together it actually becomes rather simple to accomplish.

A big hint:

bwross
Level: Smiter
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My best bet so far was this order:

Click here to view the secret text

×Roach, Wraithwing, Goblin, Guard

I used:

Click here to view the secret text

×Roach and Goblin straight down in front, the Wraithwing I moved onto the force arrow in front of the Guard immediately after opening his door last, keeping the guard from moving.

And the big clue on how to use that:

Click here to view the secret text

×
I kept to the right to hold things that way until I got close enough that the Wraithwing's movement switched to running away (which being opposite to the force arrow resulted in no movement so the Guard didn't move until I was already inside).

Insane
Level: Master Delver

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Excellent, solved that too now.
Also, for the room with the Wraithwings and the rock golems, I'm pretty sure I have to get the golems completely on top of the wraithwings when the black gate opens.

I have been trying for ages, and the best I've gotten so far was all correct except one.

Any hints on how to get them all properly aligned?

-Insane

bwross
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starwed wrote:
About 1S2E

Click here to view the secret text

×The point of this room was that the goblin can only be killed if you enter the corridor from the north end. The golem is added to kind of lure you into trying the south end first, so that you can see it doesn't work. (Rather like how the entrance is arranged.) If anyone managed to kill the goblin entering from the south, I'd like to see a demo, as that kind of spoils the room.

Yeah, it occurred to me that that might have been the "lesson" this morning. I didn't fall for deception, I used the correct way the first time simply because I knew that it would be easier to work with the goblin with the way the corridor is arranged. You're probably correct about the other way not working at all... I tried it and couldn't find a solution (although that doesn't mean that there isn't someone who knows some greater secret about goblins that can pull that off somehow).

bwross
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Any hints on how to get them all properly aligned?

Not particularly, I just shuffled around until I got no golems on the bottom. I suppose a little hint might be not allowing things to settle... it's much easier to arrange for three columns than for all five.

bwross
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Quick note on 1W:

I've discovered that you don't need to be fully efficient... there's a leeway of one move (eg you can start one square east of where you need to be to lure the seep and still make it to the critical point in time). That might be unintentional.

Insane
Level: Master Delver

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bwross wrote:

Any hints on how to get them all properly aligned?

Not particularly, I just shuffled around until I got no golems on the bottom. I suppose a little hint might be not allowing things to settle... it's much easier to arrange for three columns than for all five.

Aah, that helped.
My last worries are with 1N and 2N 1E.
The first one, I just can't seem to manipulate the goblin right,
The second one, I have absolutely no idea how to solve.

-Insane

bwross
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Insane wrote:
My last worries are with 1N and 2N 1E.
The first one, I just can't seem to manipulate the goblin right,
The second one, I have absolutely no idea how to solve.

The thing with 1N is that it doesn't really force anyone to learn or even use any knowledge. I didn't bother thinking about serpent timing or serpent and goblin move preferences, I just danced around the grid until the time and an edge came together in a way that would work.

As for 2N1E, there are 4 things and the order things need to be done should become pretty apparent after a bit of thought. However, accomplishing that might require a bit of playing around with the decoy and Wraithwing (so if things look like they're really not going anywhere, restart and try something different... there aren't that many possibilities).