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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Beethro's Teacher (Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection)
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8.2/10 (58 votes)
σ 2.10
Author Name:Henri Kareinen
Submitted By:Doom
Hold Name:Beethro's Teacher
Theme:Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:8
Number of Rooms:106
Number of Monsters:1375
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:22 (+25 / -3)
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Ezlo
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Sorry about that earlier, just another effect of me blowing up. :blush
06-15-2006 at 06:41 PM
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Watcher
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I've made it about halfway through Second Level so far, and I'm another person in the "not impressed" camp. So I thought I'd offer a bit of an explanation of this.

What irritates me most about this hold is that too many of the rooms give you very little or no margin of error. Take, for instance, First Level 1S1E. The idea isn't bad at all - you need to get enough roaches to spawn so that you can block the rightmost roach queen. Fine. In order to do this, you not only have to get each of the other queens to spawn as many roaches as possible, you also have to do so in the correct order. Make a single mistake, and the room becomes unsolvable.

Or take Second Level 1S. Okay, you're on a timer and you need to reach four orbs which are guarded by evil eyes. Again, there's very little room for error - I ended up being one move too late for one of the orbs a lot of times. After I finally beat the room, I looked at the top 8 demos to see how other people had done. Apparently, the best that anyone had managed was two moves to spare. That's a pretty tight timer.

Mostly, I get the impression that someone took a hold about as difficult as late JtRH, browsed through the Challenges forum and collected the most difficult challenges for each room, and decided to enforce all of them. I can't see challenges being created for any of the rooms I've seen so far - there's no way to improve on a regular completion of the rooms.

On top of that, there's so far been an annoying overreliance on lots of roach queens to create difficulty. Especially First Level 3E and First Level 1N strike me as rooms that consist of a regular puzzle plus a lot of roach queens behind force arrows to make it harder. Then there's First Level 1N2E and Second Level 4S, both of which are pretty regular horde management rooms, except that the first is on a rather tight timer, and the second is rendered unsolvable if you make a mistake during the first 35 turns or so. Finally, there's First Level 2N1E which consists of a lot of QW-ing with an enforced efficiency of one roach every other turn, which is just plain tedious.

So on the whole, I'm really not impressed by this hold. I rather hope the next SmS will be less difficult.

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06-16-2006 at 09:35 PM
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eytanz
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Watcher wrote:
In order to do this, you not only have to get each of the other queens to spawn as many roaches as possible, you also have to do so in the correct order.

That's not true. The queens are independent of each other and can be solved at any order.

Make a single mistake, and the room becomes unsolvable.

True, but it's normally pretty clear when you make a mistake. And the solution can be calculated without making a single move, based only on the starting position (I know this for a fact because that's how I solved it). There's no trial and error required.

I am somewhat more in agreement with the rest of your criticism - 1N would be a better room without the roach queens behind the arrows in the first half oh the room; the queen manipulation does not depend on it at all. 3E less so - the roaches serve a purpose there as the puzzle is to fight the hordes without trapping the mimics. Still, it's a valid criticism, as is the timers being too tough. And there are a lot of timers which are all very tight, no disagreement here.


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[Last edited by eytanz at 06-16-2006 09:52 PM]
06-16-2006 at 09:52 PM
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Syntax
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Very good analysis...

But, simply said, I absolutely love this hold :D
06-16-2006 at 09:53 PM
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jbluestein
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eytanz wrote:
Watcher wrote:
In order to do this, you not only have to get each of the other queens to spawn as many roaches as possible, you also have to do so in the correct order.

That's not true. The queens are independent of each other and can be solved at any order.

Almost...

Click here to view the secret text


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06-16-2006 at 09:57 PM
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eytanz
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Ok, I grant that. But that's pretty obvious in advance as well.

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06-16-2006 at 10:01 PM
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Doom
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Secreted to save space: (I didn't read the other replies after Watcher's yet, so I may be repeating something)
Click here to view the secret text

06-16-2006 at 10:15 PM
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UrAvgAzn
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icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Uhh, uhmm, ahem. People, mod watcher up, he has 666 rank points.

Keep posting,
-Jeremy

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06-18-2006 at 02:42 AM
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Banjooie
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666 doesn't mean anything, though.
06-18-2006 at 03:39 AM
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Watcher
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UrAvgAzn wrote:
Uhh, uhmm, ahem. People, mod watcher up, he has 666 rank points.

Apparently the Bar has read your post, because it just gave me 10 rank points.

Now, a few short replies to Doom:

Watcher wrote:
What irritates me most about this hold is that too many of the rooms give you very little or no margin of error. Take, for instance, First Level 1S1E. The idea isn't bad at all - you need to get enough roaches to spawn so that you can block the rightmost roach queen. Fine. In order to do this, you not only have to get each of the other queens to spawn as many roaches as possible, you also have to do so in the correct order. Make a single mistake, and the room becomes unsolvable.
I wouldn't have personally changed this particular room at all. Reduce the roach requirement, and the room becomes quickly trivial. It's part of the trick to see why you were a few roaches short (Referring to the correct order). Also, I hope this room didn't feel tedious. After that single mistake, it shouldn't take long at all to get to the position in which you were.

I see your point, and it probably wasn't the best example anyway. And no, I didn't find this particular room tedious.

On top of that, there's so far been an annoying overreliance on lots of roach queens to create difficulty. Especially First Level 3E and First Level 1N strike me as rooms that consist of a regular puzzle plus a lot of roach queens behind force arrows to make it harder.
Okay... I agree with you here. Those rooms could've been more interesting with less roach queens and more different tricks. Thanks, I'll try to keep in mind when making rooms later. But again, this isn't a major focus in most of the areas in the hold. It just happened that there were several of those near the beginning.

I do have a reply to this, but I'm going to move it over to the SmS thread in General, as it makes a more general point.

L1-1N2E: The timer isn't that tight if you block the queens in the beginning. One of the main problems here was making the timer long enough, but still not too long to make the "direct approach" too easy. It was supposed to be extremely hard, but was maybe still a little too easy in the end, as some people completed it the hard way without thinking about alternatives at all. But yes, the timer could've been better. One more spawn for the non-challenge-timer could've been a good idea, and several moves less for the challenge-timer.
L2-4S: Yes, the room becomes unsolvable. Saying 35 moves sounds worse to me than it really is, though, because it's really just about doing thing X before progressing with the room normally. And you should see exactly where you made the mistake, so it's easy to correct it next time.
L1-2N1E: It's enforced to be 1 roach every 2 turns, because the room wouldn't work otherwise. And no, I wouldn't have built it if there wasn't a CTRL+Q/W option in DROD.

Regarding these rooms: it's not that I found any of the individual rooms particularly irritating; it was more the overall pattern of rooms involving roach queens that annoyed me. And you're right about L2-4S - it was pretty easy to correct the mistake after I looked through the orbs carefully.

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06-18-2006 at 09:38 AM
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Ezlo
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I find it amazing. I just finished a room on level four, only to find out a got a sixth place. So I go, and I look, and there are only six highscores, including my own. So I just have to say it, I'm really really sorry if it bothers anyone.

I'M IN LAST PLACE!!! WOOHOO!!!! :D
06-19-2006 at 02:36 AM
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Briareos
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As silly as it may sound, there's even at least one room in level 6 where Denfry has his uses...

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06-19-2006 at 07:23 AM
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Fanka
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Recently mastered this hold and I'd like to add my opinion:
It was certainly one of the best holds I've ever played. I think that the vast majority of the rooms have at least one original trick that I felt I'd never seen before! (And that's of course after mastering all the caravelgames holds and most of the higher rated other ones.) I agree with the people above who like SmS holds to be as difficult as this one and also that DROD is not meant to be an easy game! One has to note also that the difficulty of this hold does not at all lie on tedious rooms with thousands of monsters or long repetitive rooms but on intelligent tricks to find. Most rooms become really easy after one realises that little evil trick. I believe that the last levels of JtRH include more difficult and much more tedious and long rooms that don't become easy even after somebody has explained the whole theory of the room. Some people will disagree, but I'm of the opinion that the SmS holds should be mostly targeted to people that have already conquered (if not mastered) KDD and JtRH. The very few slightly more repetitive and tedious rooms of Beethro's Teacher (like L1 1S mentioned above) also find nicely their place in the hold, giving variety as it would be kind of boring and predictable if all rooms had what I'd call a "one-line solution".
The one kind of room that the hold seems to lack is the kind of room that you have really many (usually brained) roaches spawning (maybe even more than 30) and one has to be a really efficient smitemaster to survive (like those very difficult rooms in one of the last levels of JtRH, where one has to stay alive long enough and exit, and then conquer the room later lighting a fuse somewhere). The room in the last level had potential of being something of the sort but it was trivial for me and it sounded ridiculous to hear beethro complaining about it, especially knowing that he had conquered those rooms in JtRH (yes, I understand why it turned out to be the way it is though). Another small drawback of the holds might be that there are some rooms that need the player to understand the rule of moving for snakes very well, which KDD and JtRH don't teach you very well (in the sense that you don't need to manipulate snakes very precisely to conquer them).

Some rooms I didn't like very much:
L1 1S
L2 4S 1W
L2 2S (2nd time)
L3 3S 3E
L6 1E

Rooms that I pariculary liked:
L1 1N
L2 3S
L3 1W
L5 1N
L5 1E
L6 1W
L6 1S 2E
L6 2S 1E

I give this hold 8-9 for difficulty and 9-10 overall.
06-19-2006 at 08:30 PM
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Ezlo
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Okay, one more outburst of mine and I'll be done. I was fooling around, trying to finish a room in the fourth level again, well, I get it, and I find out I get fourth place. So I go and look, and what do I find? I find this:

Click here to view the secret text


If all highscores are this rewarding I might try competing for a few now that I'm a bit better at DROD! :lol
06-20-2006 at 09:09 PM
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Chaco
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They probably bumped into walls a few times on the way out ;)

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06-20-2006 at 09:11 PM
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Briareos
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Chaco wrote:
They probably bumped into walls a few times on the way out ;)
Nah. It's just that until Doom posted about it nobody had figured out there's a waaay faster (not to mention easier) solution for that room - looks like we're all on auto-pilot and always go for the hard solution first... :D

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06-21-2006 at 07:39 AM
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talund
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I am currently languishing in Level 5 of BT and alternately hating and enjoying this Hold. The level of thought that goes into solving each room is mind numbing at times (and leads one to try the most difficult solutions and overlooking the easier ones such as Level 4, 3S3E (I have to give thanks to Doom for cluing me in on that so that I had a No. 1 until Briareos came along :~( ). That being said, what I enjoy most about this game is the challenging holds - I tend to abandon easier ones fairly quickly - and this one is by far the hardest from start to (and here I'm assuming) finish that I've encountered. I hope that I am able to finish this one before I retire in 25 years.
06-21-2006 at 06:34 PM
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Briareos
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talund wrote:
Level 4, 3S3E (I have to give thanks to Doom for cluing me in on that so that I had a No. 1 until Briareos came along :~( ).
There, there...

*hands talund a handkerchief and a mod point*

:D

(Also, Michthro came along after me... :~()

np: ML - Ukelangelo (Intelligent Toys 1)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 06-21-2006 08:20 PM]
06-21-2006 at 08:19 PM
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silver
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No one has a high score for one of the two master rooms (at least, it seems no one has more than 63/64 rooms done and the other people with 63 have a score in the _other_ master room)

(not that that necessarily means anything. but it's always reassuring when the hold author has 64/64 high scores to reassure everyone that all the rooms are, in fact, quite possible :) )


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[Last edited by silver at 06-26-2006 03:41 AM]
06-26-2006 at 03:35 AM
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Ezlo
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Rats! There's a master wall! I was hoping I didn't have to do that awfully tedious looking secret room on level 5! O:-
06-26-2006 at 03:38 AM
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Briareos
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Ezlo wrote:
Rats! There's a master wall! I was hoping I didn't have to do that awfully tedious looking secret room on level 5! O:-
Heeeheehehe... :)

Actually, it's not that tedious once you figure out what to do, although it does take somewhere between 2000 and 6000 moves...

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06-26-2006 at 07:46 AM
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Ezlo
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I believe I am the dumbest person yet to conqour this SmS yet. Here's my stats:

Moves: 191020
Kills: 19728
Deaths: 654
Time: 19:26:53
Secrets Found: Not many

I doubt I'll be mastering this any time soon, so I'm just going to give my thoughts now.

This hold, like Perfection, has a specific mindset, I called Perfection's "The Perfect Mindset" because everything needed to be perfect. This hold's mindset is "The Student Mindset", because in almost every room what you think you must do is completely wrong. Once you get that mindset, everything becomes about a brain and a half easier. I'm just going to list my favorite rooms in each level, because if I talked about all the good rooms I would explain the whole hold!

Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Ezlo at 06-26-2006 06:14 PM]
06-26-2006 at 06:12 PM
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Briareos
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Ezlo wrote:
I believe I am the dumbest person yet to conqour this SmS yet. Here's my stats:

Moves: 191020
Kills: 19728
Deaths: 654
Time: 19:26:53
Secrets Found: Not many

I doubt I'll be mastering this any time soon, so I'm just going to give my thoughts now.
Bah. Look what it took me:

Moves: 161339 (not that different)
Kills: 27138
Deaths: 596 (nearly the same)
Time: 25:41:09 (boo-yah...)
Secrets found: Yeah, well - I mastered it, but I still need to do one room...

But still, your score ain't that different... :)

And while I'm on a roll, here's my comments:

Click here to view the secret text

All in all, I probably enjoyed level 5 the most, but after getting over the shock of being thrown in the middle of the first level not expecting what was there I'll say I don't want to miss this hold... :D

np: Mr. Lif - Bad Card (I Phantom)

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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(

[Last edited by Briareos at 06-26-2006 07:11 PM]
06-26-2006 at 06:52 PM
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Ezlo
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Well, remember, it's going to take me a good day and a half to finish that one secret room on level 5 still. So my time will be somewhere around 50 hours. ;)
06-26-2006 at 07:30 PM
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Briareos
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Ezlo wrote:
Well, remember, it's going to take me a good day and a half to finish that one secret room on level 5 still. So my time will be somewhere around 50 hours. ;)
Do you really expect us to believe that?

Also, since Bunches is away for two weeks I actually expect you to finish this room faster than before... :P

(No offence, Bunches... *ducks*)

np: Mr. Lif - The Now (I Phantom)

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06-26-2006 at 07:42 PM
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Ezlo
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I can't believe no one else found the unintended solution in Level Six Thrice South besides me and Fanka!
06-26-2006 at 10:34 PM
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Briareos
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Ezlo wrote:
I can't believe no one else found the unintended solution in Level Six Thrice South besides me and Fanka!
Yeah, well - I stayed one tile S of where you were hiding... how's that for stupidly brave? *phhbt* :D

np: Safety Scissors - I Am The Cheese (Tainted Lunch)

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06-26-2006 at 10:39 PM
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michthro
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Yay! Mastered. Comments:
Click here to view the secret text

06-29-2006 at 02:54 PM
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larrymurk
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Overall I'd have to say this hold is an awesome effort Henri!

I might complain that it was a bit difficult at times, but then again who am I to throw stones?

Every room took time and thought. I needed help on probably 2 rooms per level, but tricky difficult rooms are far better than boring easy rooms.

I'd have to say L2:3S, the multiple entry room w/ 4 wubbas stands out most as the perfect difficulty, fun, challenging, not burdensome room. There are too many good rooms for me to list.

Oh, and thanks to Erik for hiring pro actors for both roles. I really liked Denfry's voice!

Thanks Henri et al for a superb hold!
07-06-2006 at 09:21 PM
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Tony
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Hey there guys! Thanks to those who are digging my work as the voice of Denfry. I was kinda bummed when I read this thread and heard how hard it was. I'll admit, I don't really play DROD. I've played it, and dug it a lot...but certainly didn't realize the extent of it's membership and their devotion to this game.

Basically, I'm no good at these puzzles quite yet and I want to hear more "me" in the game. But I'll keep working at it, though I suppose I should be "starting out" on a easier hold. You say there's one coming out for kids? ;)
07-10-2006 at 04:54 AM
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