Tscott
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File: L M N O.hold (46.3 KB)
Downloaded 43 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's the "spiritual sequel" to H I J K. Just like that hold, this is four levels that you can play in any order.

Still to be done are a few level descriptions and improvements to the scripting in the entrance level. Other than that, I think I've got all the rooms more or less how I want them. I've played through the whole thing myself, so I know it is solvable and all the stairs should work.

I'll be grateful for any feedback.

EDIT: Latest version has been attached.
EDIT: Final(?) version attached.
EDIT: Final (!) version attached.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Tscott at 05-22-2006 04:50 AM]

Kevin_P86
Level: Smitemaster

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Many of the rooms are TOO HARD! and many of them were not very hard at all. However, that is a good thing to have a variety of difficulty.

I managed to beat "O", and several rooms of "L", but couldn't even beat the entrances of "M" or "N"!

____________________________
+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

larrymurk
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L- you say Lullaby, I say Lots and Lots of tar/mud.

The rooms look pretty.
I found them to be a pretty consistant medium difficulty.
They were mostly fun, especially the entrance.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
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I enjoyed Lullaby, Mirage, (haven't managed 1S yet), and Not Forgotten. Absolutely hated Overground - more like overpopulated. I have only been able to manage four rooms in that level. All in all, a good hold and overall not *too* difficult, except for some of those rooms with Queens.

Tscott
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bandit1200 wrote:
Absolutely hated Overground - more like overpopulated. I have only been able to manage four rooms in that level.

If it helps, I'll say you're over halfway done with that level (unless you count secrets ).

I figured this would be the reaction for some people, that's why I previewed Overground a while ago in this forum to get some reactions. And that's also why there's only 7 required rooms (and a trivial exit room).

Mirage, (haven't managed 1S yet)

I'm assuming this means you've done the 3 related rooms? 1S is in my opinion the toughest on this level. You've got a few more rooms once 1S is done, but good work so far. I can give you a few tips on 1S if you'd like.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Tscott at 05-12-2006 07:41 PM]

Tscott
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
I managed to beat "O", and several rooms of "L", but couldn't even beat the entrances of "M" or "N"!

M:


N:


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
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I don't know about this hold, but I get the feeling that PQRS will be a doozy.

Excellent work!

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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I thoroughly enjoyed HIJK, so I'll give LMNO a try. From the sound of things, looks like this'll be a nice challenge.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Tim
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There are many people who can solve your rooms better than I do. And I still have to say that I like your holds. But let me do the spelling first (you did ask me, remember?):

Entrance level: What's it called?
Entrance description: still missing.
Entrance Overground entrance: I think the message should be shown eariler, as I've completely missed the title when entering the first time.

Mirage 2N: "northeast" instead of "north east"

Overground description: "every side of me" insetad of "everyside of me" (Note that because this is speech, you don't have to change and blame it on Beethro

Oh, and you need an Ending Message.

-- Tim (now needs to find time to finish this one...)

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

Tscott
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As I said, some of the level descriptions still needed to be done. Thanks though, I've made those corrections and I promise the next version I upload will have descriptions for all the level transitions.

Entrance Overground entrance: I think the message should be shown eariler, as I've completely missed the title when entering the first time.

I'll see if I can move the trigger spots in the entrance room to give each level name sooner. I'm trying to work out a way to have the level names repeat whenever the player crosses the trigger area.

In HIJK I used:

Label "start"
Wait for player at: X,Y
Speech "Level name"
Wait for player at: X,Y
Go to "start"

and everything repeated itself just fine.

In LMNO I can't get it to work, though. I think the extra speech from Halph is throwing it off somehow. I've tried several different ways, but I can't get it to repeat.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

---

[Last edited by Tscott at 05-13-2006 01:44 AM]

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1978
Registered: 10-23-2003
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I haven't looked at this hold yet, but I think this is what you might want:

Label "start"
Wait for player at: X,Y
Flush Speech On
Speech "Level name"
Wait for player at: X,Y
Go to "start"

____________________________
http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
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Tscott wrote:

bandit1200 wrote:
Absolutely hated Overground - more like overpopulated. I have only been able to manage four rooms in that level.

If it helps, I'll say you're over halfway done with that level (unless you count secrets ).

I figured this would be the reaction for some people, that's why I previewed Overground a while ago in this forum to get some reactions. And that's also why there's only 7 required rooms (and a trivial exit room).

Mirage, (haven't managed 1S yet)

I'm assuming this means you've done the 3 related rooms? 1S is in my opinion the toughest on this level. You've got a few more rooms once 1S is done, but good work so far. I can give you a few tips on 1S if you'd like.

In Overground, I'd managed the entrance and W,N&E of it and I'd been in the secret room, and had a half-hearted attempt at the rest. To be honest, I'd rather play a tar maze than these sort of rooms. Just like real life, I don't cope very well with crowds.

In Mirage; yes, I'd beaten the rest, leaving only 1S, so a tip or two for that one wouldn't go amiss.

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
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For Mirage 1S:


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

---

[Last edited by Tscott at 05-13-2006 08:24 AM]

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
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Thanks.

larrymurk
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M

Overall, this was enjoyable.
I first played Entr, 1N, 1N1W, 1W. Entr was the only one that might represent any challenge I'd say.
Then I played the next block of four rooms. I always start by saying I'm not a fan of multiple re-entry rooms and then I end up saying "but this was fine." Gladly that is my comment here. It takes a minute to see what you're doing with the 4 rooms, then things go fairly smoothly. Indeed, I'd say 1S is the hardest room I've played yet in this hold (and most fun).
The final 4 rooms. 2N & 2N1E were fine. 3N & 3N1E both just seemed to be a matter of time killing roaches/queens (with 3N taking long and 3N1E quick).

N

No, not forgotten. This gets the worst review of the group so far. Though you've made some changes, I do recognize these rooms. Entr I like. 1W, very easy. Just work up to the eyes from the SE and then clean up. 1S, easy but ok. 2S, no not more of these.. This room layout tends to be slow-going as is. Now you add 27 golems... I turn around. I run through 1E and head N. Hit dead end and return to 1E unconquered. I'd have to do a restore because I can not continue on otherwise. This gives me a good excuse to move on to OOOOOOO.

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 05-13-2006 09:04 PM]

larrymurk
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Ah, and I see I already playtested Overground and posted comments long ago. You have removed the thread maybe?

In any case, there's a lot of gamimg goodness here.

L- I thought was very pretty and had the most similar level of difficulty.
M- Quite varried difficulty. Very good though.
N- Well...
O- I remember liking this a lot.

Looking like another awesome job Tscott!

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 05-13-2006 09:17 PM]

Tscott
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Thanks. The next version will add green doors to 1E on Not Forgotten. I may wind up just blocking that path altogether as it serves no purpose. It was kept there because that's how the original rooms were. In the original version of those rooms, that path led to an arrow maze and a pointless 'reward' scroll.

I thought the golems of 2S were an interesting challenge. I'm sorry to hear you had such a violent reaction to that room. I'm taking your thoughts of the level under consideration.

The thread to Overground is still around somewhere, and I've taken into account all the comments there. I think the only noticable things that I changed there was the addition of one force arrow in the exit room and a door that lets players backtrack from that room if they happen to return from those stairs in the exit room.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

michthro
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Agreed. L, M and O are great. N is not so good, although I liked the entrance. The difficulty overall varies quite a lot, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but personally I prefer consistency or a gradual increase.

One minor getting-stuck problem:

Kevin_P86
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 535
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I managed to complete L, M and O - but still haven't the foggiest about the entrance of N. I either stay on the trapdoor and get surrounded, or go off the trapdoor and have no way of getting fewer than two to end up in the middle at the same time, at which point I have no way to get one of the golems on the appropriate spots without getting killed by another.

____________________________
+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

UrAvgAzn
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They are right about having a good range of difficulties. These are excellent puzzle in the eye of some people, but they are impossible-looking to the average 12 year old. You should start with ABCD or EFGH before these though. Ciao.

Keep posting,
-Jeremy

____________________________
"The leaf, still green, must someday fall.
Such grief, such joy, to live at all."
- T.A. Barron, The Lost Years of Merlin

Tim
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michthro wrote:
One minor getting-stuck problem: Once you go N from N:2E, you can't go back.

There is an alternative exit in N:1N2E.

Chaco
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L - Love it. Maybe I'm just predisposed, but I liked what you did with mud and tar in this level. The Entrance was a wonderful puzzle, and (I forget which room this is) the brained-tar baby room with Beethro cutting away at a mud passage. I did not, however, even try the secret room, as it was just *too* big.

M - The SE tunnel of 1S doesn't go anywhere (unintended)? I haven't played too much of this, so I'll hold off on reviewing.

N - I don't get why people didn't really like this. I liked it a lot. Having played H I J K, I recognized and liked the changes you made to the rooms. Entrance took some thought, but then I realised that a similar technique was employed in Entrapment. Your DBOD remake was good. 2S I agree was much harder than the rest of the rooms, but I didn't find it *that* hard. I felt good after solving it. Well, I found it approximately JtRH level 23 difficulty. How about that

O - Played this when it was its own hold. Personally, I liked the theme, but it got to be a bit too much of a grinder after a while. I haven't solved either of the secret rooms - I'm not *that* good at destroying armies.

Overall, a quality piece of Tscott work that utilises the new JtRH elements. I'd probably give this a 7 out of 10 difficulty rating, and a 9 out of 10 for fun-ness.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Tscott
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Chaco wrote:
M - The SE tunnel of 1S doesn't go anywhere (unintended)?

No. That's very much intended.

Do a bit more exploring from that point. It'll become clear.

Thanks for the comments.

michthro wrote:
Once you go N from N:2E, you can't go back. So there are only secret rooms that way, but still, I had to restore a long way back. A checkpoint near the N exit would help. I didn't like these two secret rooms, btw. The original was bad enough

As Tim said, there is a way out in 1N2E. I may try to make it a bit more obvious if it's needed.

You don't like the whirlwind rooms? (as I like to call them) They're a fun and harmless diversion and, except for the first appearance in Impossible Cubes, I've kept them as secrets to be found and enjoyed(?) since I know there's not much puzzle to them. Maybe I went a bit overboard with having two in a row?

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

I seem to be in a minority in that I liked N but disliked O. But I have to agree with Larry's sentiments about N, 2S, which I beat first try in the editor, but can't for the life of me beat again.

I don't recall seeing O as a solo hold. Maybe I erased the experience from my memory.

Hmm, reading Chaco's post, I see I missed a secret room in L. If it's not too horrific, I should have time to do that before the pub opens.

Tscott
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
but still haven't the foggiest about the entrance of N.

If you're still stuck try this:



____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
Registered: 02-10-2003
IP: Logged

Here's the latest version. I've reduced the number of golems in Not Forgotten:2S and added an other element to the room. Tell me what you think. The issues of getting stuck going north from 1E and the backtracking from the secret issue have been solved with the same modification.

I've added level descriptions that were missing, though they may still be improved upon. I still haven't written an ending text.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

That makes it easier, yet you still need to be careful that you don't block your exit.

larrymurk
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Ok, I played the rest on N.

2N: Of course you realize this can easily completed w/o dropping the red door.
1N: Good puzzle.

Tscott
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larrymurk wrote:
2N: Of course you realize this can easily completed w/o dropping the red door.

Rats! That thought hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
Registered: 02-10-2003
IP: Logged

I've attached at the top a new version. This one enforces the intended solution to 2N of not forgotten. I've also added an ending text.

I think this one's just about ready for the holds board. Please let me know of any other concerns or comments in the next couple of days.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"