michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
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Not bad. Optimise this, eh? I thought there must be a better way. I was very sloppy - playing it safe and just making sure it can be done, but I don't think my approach would get under 4000. Still, most people would do it the "obvious" way and find it very tedious, so I think it would be better to make it smaller and let finding your trick be a challenge for highscorers.

michthro
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wallu wrote:
All I needed was a little nudge to get michtro and Rabscuttle competing.

lol No, Rabscuttle wins by a mile. Not the kind of room where a masochist like him can expect much competition, least of all from a golem-horde-hater like myself.

I completely agree with you. This hold has had so many bugs in rooms and level design, that I doubt that there has been any testing.

Definitely agreed.

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1982
Registered: 10-23-2003
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wallu wrote:
L5:4N3W is impossible and it is secret room. So, you can't master the hold if this room is impossible.

Just curious, Wallu, I watched a demo of yours that appeared to have the master walls dropped (it was a tar-filled room in level 3). How did you manage that?

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 07-05-2006 10:21 PM]

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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I noticed that too... But they weren't actually dropped, otherwise the level would be straightforward. Guess the demo replay just fades out master walls, though it's only really noticeable in a room filled with them...

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

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I don't think that's the case. The reason the demo avoids stepping on the walls is because doing so would invalidate the demo. I'm away from my DROD computer though, so I can't check up on that.

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tokyokid
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 453
Registered: 05-06-2006
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Okay new verison! In the L12 room with golems, I took out a reasonable amount. (It should be no problem for you guys now), and I took out the mimics and added a checkpoint. And the other bugs with level 12 and the secret room. You can now drop the red door to get to the roach. Thanks for your time and patience!

tokyokid
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 453
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Thanks a lot wallu! And thanks to anyone who has helped with the completion of Roaches Revenge! You guys are awsome!

Yeah I tried to upload a new version of Ice Cap Vision, but there was an error. Because I accidentally added a new room to level 1 (warp room) after I uploaded the hold! Is there any way you can delete rooms? If there is I can upload the new version and it will be playable!

Edit: woah! You need just 3 more hold to beat and you'll have concored them all! Wow! Now I see why you really wanted these mistakes fixed!

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[Last edited by tokyokid at 07-06-2006 12:59 AM]

tokyokid
Level: Smiter

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Thanks wallu! I'll post a new version of Ice Cap right now!

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 11-14-2005
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I know the point has been somewhat flogged to death, and yet:

Now that I'm finally a decent way through L3:2N, with three goblins left alive and Beethro in the midst of the tar, I beg you--you, the author, and you, the reader who may someday create a room as evil as this--to please, please, always include checkpoints. I have never feared DROD-death as much as I do now (the more so because I recognize that I needn't die to kill my progress; I coud render the room unsolveable with a casual flick of the sword into the tar mother).

jjohn7418
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 161
Registered: 08-24-2003
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This is the first time I'm trying this hold. I'm on level 3 in room 1N 1E

tokyokid
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 453
Registered: 05-06-2006
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Thanks for pointing that out JJohn! I'll upload a new version right now!
edit: It's up!

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[Last edited by tokyokid at 08-19-2006 08:29 PM]

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 11-14-2005
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grumble grumble updated the hold grumble didn't add checkpoints to the most evil room in the eighth grumble

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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In L9, if you go to 2N2E before solving 2N1E, you're stuck.

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tokyokid
Level: Smiter

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Tahnan-I had put checkpoints in the room, but forgot to upload it.
eytanz-thanks for bringing that to my attention. New version uploaded!

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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The update didn't fix the problem - you can get deeper into the room but you still can't reach any of the orbs that open the way out, nor can you backtrack through 3N2E.

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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More bugs - in level 11 1W, if you leave the room the "teacher" roach vanishes and you can't solve it anymore.

Also, if you solve it and leave east or west you can't get to 1S1W.

And if you go to 1S1W before you solve 1W, you're stuck. Actually, if you go to 1S1W (and 2S1W) you're stuck, period. There's no way to leave those rooms no matter what you do.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-06-2006 03:49 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Level 12, 1N, if you enter from the east, you're stuck between the arrow on the entrance and an undroppable black door.



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silver
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 01-18-2005
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on upload you might also want to mark the 68 non-scorable rooms (1-move demo rooms) as non-scorable again instead of waiting for some player to do it for you


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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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There's more than 68 non-scorable rooms - I must have marked about 20 or so of them yesterday as I was playing the hold, and 68 is what's apparently left now.

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michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Tokyokid! Why the HELL have my demos for L3:2N and L9:2N1E been invalidated? You know better than that by now. You were supposed to add checkpoints in L3:2N, not change the room, and there was no reason to change L9:2N1E. Please don't waste my time.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3689
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Aw, I missed out on the old level 12 room. How many golems were in the top section? I found the new one pretty easy. :/

And, uh, yeah. You just made Syntax really sad.

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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He changed L9 2N1E to address the bug where you could get stuck there. He just did it badly, since he invalidated solutions and didn't actually solve the problem.

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silver
Level: Smitemaster
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unless the author can provide a victory demo proving that he knew L3:2N was solvable before he published the hold, I'd argue that he _should_ change it to something much much more reasonable. It's ridiculous to make a stupor huge horde unsure if there's a way to break it, and just hope someone does, and then call the room "acceptable" because the most efficient player happens to find a solution.

(now, michthro may make a room only he can solve, but that's different, because he'll have made it knowing it was solvable ahead of time. and he's too classy to just throw a bunch of random monsters in and hope it can be beat).

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[Last edited by silver at 09-06-2006 08:57 PM]

tokyokid
Level: Smiter

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Fixed all your bugs, and marked all the rooms I could find that were unhighscorable. Tell me if there is more.
Edit: Oh, yeah, before I did not change the room, but /w the new version, I took out all the monsters.

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[Last edited by tokyokid at 09-06-2006 11:07 PM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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Wow, that room is certainly a lot easier now... Hopefully there will be no more updates.

By the way, there used to be 188 high-scorable rooms and now there are just 179. I wonder what rooms dropped off (hopefully, trivial solution rooms, and also hopefully not one I have 1st place scores in )

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-07-2006 01:40 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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Ok, I found at two rooms which *should* be scorable but was marked as not:

L1 Entrance
L15 1N1W

I'll update this list as I found more. Tokyokid, if you see this, go back to your profile and unmark the room(s) above so that they can be scorable again. You don't need to update the hold again to do that.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-07-2006 03:39 AM]

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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uh, ey, that's not possible. once you mark a room as un-highscorable, the only way to undo that decision is to reupload the hold and then fail to mark it a second time.
...and now it's down to 174.
weird.


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[Last edited by silver at 09-07-2006 03:12 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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It's going down because he missed a lot of 1-move rooms, there are about 10 more or so if Wallu is the kind of indication he normally is. And yeah, you're right of course. I guess Schik can fix these rooms (unlikely), but unless there's good reason to re-upload the hold it's best to let it go.


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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-07-2006 03:39 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Oh, and after all this trouble, and two updates that were supposed to fix it, it's still the case that in level 9, going to 2N2E before solving 2N1E means you're stuck.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-07-2006 05:31 AM]

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 11-14-2005
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What the hell? I spent all that time conquering L3:2N and suddenly it's just gone?

Look, this is just absurd. This hold is full of:

* boring rooms (e.g. L6:7N, in which you clear a 14x30 rectangle of trapdoors and then kill a handful of eyes behind a red door),
* straight-line-walk-through rooms that just take up space and time (e.g. most of level 6),
* badly-scripted rooms (e.g. L6:1S1W, where the Slayer character says his overly dramatic line twice),
* scrolls with misspellings that a casual proofread could have caught ("stiars"?),
* rooms with "challenges" but no monsters (e.g. L6:2N4E, where the scroll reads "Can you find all 15 trapdoors?"--well, yes, since I use transparent tar, I can find them without wandering aimlessly through a tar maze).

You know, the mildly sad thing is that there are a few genuinely good rooms in here. It's just...there are so many bad ones. I can't help thinking of the old joke:

"Teacher, I don't think I deserve an F on this exam!"
"To be honest, neither do I, but it's the lowest grade we have."