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Xindaris
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icon CRATE ZONE (+2)  
I recently decided to play around in the editor with some of the new elements for the RPG 1.3 alpha, particularly the crate. Here's a short little level exhibiting some of my findings using vanilla enemies, along with re-using the x2's from "Exponentiate!". And, there is a shop that sells unlimited green keys that double in price for each x2 you pick up, as a money sink.

There are 5 scorepoints which should mostly be self-explanatory. The "Got Times 2" one activates the first time you pick up an x2, no matter which one it is. I'm not sure it's possible to get "Optional Sword Guy" and beat the snake in the same run, though. Anyway, I've verified this is beatable (in fact just winning should be fairly easy, but hopefully it's fun to optimize), but would love a little feedback before I kick it to the HA's.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-28-2021 12:17 AM]
05-31-2021 at 07:47 PM
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Gordius
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (0)  
You said it right in the first sentence, but I still missed that this is based on the 1.3 alpha build. So I tried to install the hold and failed. I usually wait on new builds until they're a bit more stable, so I probably won't run this hold immediately.

That all said, I would consider waiting on kicking this to HA until the build settles. If some crate behavior is buggy in a way that affects this hold, someone will probably find it, so that should be fine. But it's also possible there will be bugs that don't affect this hold, but the fix for them does.
06-01-2021 at 10:42 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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I'm just a volunteer HA so this could be overruled, but my opinion is that holds requiring a version of the game that hasn't been officially released yet probably won't be accepted by the HA process.

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06-01-2021 at 02:13 PM
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kieranmillar
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Yeah I wouldn't approve it either until it was able to be run on a stable version, whenever that might be
06-01-2021 at 03:47 PM
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Not bad, though I would be surprised if there are multiple possible near-optimal routes. The x2 increase is too big to take more attack/defense than necessary before it (or to use the crate in the first area).
06-01-2021 at 05:24 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+1)  
Well, the "unstable"/"in progress" version that I am using has been out for at least half a year now with no official updates during that time, so I guess this level will just have to stay in development for as long as that is. At least it'll serve as good testing ground to look for bugs or unfavorable behaviors for crates, although I certainly didn't find any while building and testing it. I also rather doubt that any update outside of "outright remove new elements from the game" would cause this to suddenly become unwinnable.

As for the crate in the first area, it still may be useful for optimizing the "Got Times 2" scorepoint, I think.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-02-2021 06:11 PM]
06-02-2021 at 06:10 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+2)  
I decided to record my first impressions.

06-26-2021 at 08:50 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+1)  
During the video I overlooked a bunch of things and made some dumb errors like thinking some resources cost way more than they actually do. I won't list them all for spoilers, but it's possible to optimise this far far more. Here's my next attempt while the video was processing.



[Last edited by kieranmillar at 06-26-2021 09:05 PM]
06-26-2021 at 08:51 PM
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Xindaris
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Awesome, thanks for the look-through! Here are some various responses/thoughts:

My overall goal was to play around with the new elements, especially the crates, and to sort of make my own "tech demo" for everyone to see the various interactions they have and how they can all be used. Thus a few less "pure RPG" puzzles are around, since I think the crate is pretty awesome even as just a pure puzzle element. As with the "Exponentiate!" contest entry, the x2's basically add a dimension to optimal play of making dead certain you spend all the greckles you can before taking that x2, and then getting all the stats you can after. Beyond having lots of doors they can open, the green key shop is meant to incentivize this kind of "frugal play" by giving out more score to a player who can afford to buy more of them.

It never occurred to me while building this originally that skipping the soulless using the crate might be an idea. I think I'll add a way back south to make that choice more reasonable, since the results could be very interesting. However, the yellow door on the east having to be the "last stop" for the crate while the west one is recoverable was completely intentional, and I think I'll set it up so that recovering the crate from the north requires the soulless to die, as I think that would be more interesting too.

The "Got times 2" scorepoint is a bit special, as it activates with the first x2 you pick up regardless of where it is. I think this might make optimizing it a bit more interesting since that technically means you don't need to kill the mad eye to obtain it.

3N1W can be cleaned out (health, attack and defense) with just 1 green key. If you want to know how:
Click here to view the secret text

But even not considering that, you seemed to forget that you could basically grab attack or hp for free in that room near the end of your run. I guess I could've looked for some earlier place to show the player very blatantly that pickup items actually block crates, but I assume they've always blocked mirrors too?

If people found the 2N1E puzzle especially annoying, I could probably add in a hint scroll with a warning prior to it. The puzzle mostly boils down to
Click here to view the secret text
and then the rest falls into place fairly trivially. I wasn't finished building when I put in that room, so I didn't know that there wouldn't be any pits or water in the rest of the level, hence the careful security measure around the grappling hook. I think it's still a good idea to leave that in as it also reassures the player that he can't use the hook anywhere else.

The "green key shop" tells you its price when you can afford it (in the prompt to choose whether to buy one); for some reason it didn't occur to me to also have it say what the price is when you can't. That's easy enough to add in to its scripting.

The setup in 4N basically gives you a choice of any two stats (among the big attack, small attack and medium defense), but not all three; after making your choice and blowing up the bomb, you then get some health for free. Each option has a different price in terms of what you need to fight to get it. The way you did the room basically locked your choice in as getting the big and small attack (or not getting the latter if you were impatient for the health for some reason).

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-27-2021 05:27 AM]
06-27-2021 at 05:11 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+1)  
I figured out 3N1W after recording, that was just me being dumb during my first look.

Something I should probably mention in case it is unintended:
Click here to view the secret text

06-27-2021 at 09:47 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (0)  
Yeah, that might be a problem, honestly. Even removing the slot after the wood sword is picked up might not be enough if it's possible to get to 1N without ever taking it in the first place, so..maybe I should just make the player start with the wood sword? Or else put something sword-requiring in the way of proceeding in 1N in addition to removing the slot once wood sword is taken.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-27-2021 08:39 PM]
06-27-2021 at 08:38 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+2)  
UPDATE:
New edit with all the changes mentioned in the past couple of my posts. Specifically:

-The Entrance is set up to allow usage of the crate to head north before killing the soulless and coming back afterward (but require killing them to free the crate again)
-It should now be impossible to bring the wooden sword farther north than 1N under any circumstances
-The "green key shop" in 1N now also tells you the price of a key if you can't afford it.
-2N1E has a well-warned "spoiler scroll" in case someone doesn't want to deal with the puzzle.

I'm considering setting up an extra scorepoint for killing the soulless before entering 1N, since I think it's extremely likely that the current "vanilla" form of that scorepoint is much easier to optimize by going north right away and grabbing the free x2 there, not to mention the rest of the resources up that way.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-28-2021 12:29 AM]
06-28-2021 at 12:19 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+2)  
Thank you for the hold and playthrough, gents!
I liked the design and it was fun to see the new game elements being tried out here.
Xindaris wrote:
My overall goal was to play around with the new elements, especially the crates, and to sort of make my own "tech demo" for everyone to see the various interactions they have and how they can all be used. Thus a few less "pure RPG" puzzles are around, since I think the crate is pretty awesome even as just a pure puzzle element.
I'm glad to hear you both give a thumbs-up to the crate. Being able to leverage door walking more seemed like it would be fun and interesting, as well as puzzling things out in new ways in three dimensions. I liked seeing how you used the crate here.

I'm waiting to officially release 1.3 as a "beta" until we get some playtesting mileage on the new game elements, and this exposure is really helpful. There's one nuance in crate movement logic that I'm not sold on and would like your feedback on: being able to push a crate while standing on another crate (at the same or higher level of elevation). The current interaction feels weird and I'm not sure we should keep it this way. The alternative logic I'm thinking of for this scenario is that you'd always walk on top of any adjacent crates that are at the same level (i.e., either on the floor or on a door) without pushing them. These interactions should probably be played around with a bit more to see if anything else seems odd. Interested in your thoughts.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-13-2021 06:43 PM]
07-13-2021 at 06:37 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (0)  
Because language is hard, I'd like to try to clarify what you mean with an image.

In this situation:
Click here to view the secret text


The current behavior is that if I step south, the crate south of me will be pushed and I'll come down to floor level. If I step in any of the other directions that a crate is in, then since that crate can't be pushed, I will step onto the crate instead. Are you saying the behavior you'd prefer is that stepping south here would also place me on the crate to the south? I admit it does "feel" a little strange if I really think about it that the default response to standing on one crate with another crate in my way is to shove it forward as I also step downward, but I suspect there's an argument for either behavior.

Separately, if I'm standing next to a crate and both I and the crate are on an open door, and then I lock the door so that it's closed and I am doorwalking, the current behavior is that I can now push the crate around on top of the door (and any adjacent doors) as I doorwalk. This fact is crucial to the puzzle of 3N1W in the present state of the level here. Is that something that would be changed? It seems fairly sensible that the crate should continue to be pushed in this situation, even if it wouldn't in the above one.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-13-2021 08:15 PM]
07-13-2021 at 07:26 PM
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mrimer
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Xindaris wrote:
The current behavior is that if I step south, the crate south of me will be pushed and I'll come down to floor level. If I step in any of the other directions that a crate is in, then since that crate can't be pushed, I will step onto the crate instead. Are you saying the behavior you'd prefer is that stepping south here would also place me on the crate to the south? I admit it does "feel" a little strange if I really think about it that the default response to standing on one crate with another crate in my way is to shove it forward as I also step downward, but I suspect there's an argument for either behavior.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. To me, it doesn't make sense to be able to push a crate when you're above it and move toward it; you should just step onto it.
Separately, if I'm standing next to a crate and both I and the crate are on an open door, and then I lock the door so that it's closed and I am doorwalking, the current behavior is that I can now push the crate around on top of the door (and any adjacent doors) as I doorwalk. This fact is crucial to the puzzle of 3N1W in the present state of the level here. Is that something that would be changed? It seems fairly sensible that the crate should continue to be pushed in this situation, even if it wouldn't in the above one.
No, I'm not suggesting to change anything about crates being pushed atop doors while walking on doors.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
07-15-2021 at 04:18 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+1)  
Alright, well I'm fairly neutral on changing that or not. I wouldn't necessarily think either version of that behavior is any more or less intuitive off-hand, so in my mind the priority question is "what makes more interesting puzzles?" And I'm not totally sure what the correct answer to that is. I'm sure I could make the basic idea of that room work and still be pretty interesting if the change were made, though, so I don't think I'd have very many complaints.

It is already true that if you step from a door toward a crate (that's sitting on regular floor), you will step onto the crate and not push it. But it looks visually and "feels" like doors are at a level of elevation higher than crates, and not at the same exact elevation, so I'm not sure if that's a point for or against either.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-15-2021 06:58 PM]
07-15-2021 at 06:55 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+1)  
For what it's worth, I find the idea of stepping from one crate to another more intuitive than dropping down between two adjacent crates to push one of them.

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07-16-2021 at 06:19 AM
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mrimer
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mauvebutterfly wrote:
For what it's worth, I find the idea of stepping from one crate to another more intuitive than dropping down between two adjacent crates to push one of them.
I appreciate the feedback. I'm thinking the same thing. Any strong objections from anyone on making the push logic work this way?

Just had another thought/question on crate logic:

Should eyes/goblins/slayer/etc that attack in front of them be able to see and hit the player when standing on a crate?

Seems like having the crate let you avoid attacks could make interactions more interesting. (Not sure about changing the Slayer to not rotate toward you and strike you when you're on a crate, though. Maybe weapons can still hit you when you're on a crate?)

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 08-02-2021 04:52 PM]
08-02-2021 at 04:52 PM
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mrimer wrote:
(Not sure about changing the Slayer to not rotate toward you and strike you when you're on a crate, though. Maybe weapons can still hit you when you're on a crate?)

I'd expect weapons to hit any entity standing on a crate. Weapons already hit entities standing on doors, which are in a sense "more elevated" than the crate. So I think it'd make sense for the Slayer to continue his previous behavior of stabbing the player if they stand next to him, even if the player is on top of a crate.

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08-03-2021 at 01:44 AM
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mrimer
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Chaco wrote:
I'd expect weapons to hit any entity standing on a crate. Weapons already hit entities standing on doors, which are in a sense "more elevated" than the crate. So I think it'd make sense for the Slayer to continue his previous behavior of stabbing the player if they stand next to him, even if the player is on top of a crate.
That's a great point. Yes, doors raise up higher than a crate. I'd totally forgotten about that detail (derp!).

Any thoughts on non-wielding enemies striking you on a crate, or not?

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
08-04-2021 at 12:42 AM
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icon Re: CRATE ZONE (+2)  
mrimer wrote:
mauvebutterfly wrote:
For what it's worth, I find the idea of stepping from one crate to another more intuitive than dropping down between two adjacent crates to push one of them.
I appreciate the feedback. I'm thinking the same thing. Any strong objections from anyone on making the push logic work this way?

I support the idea of stepping from one crate to another.

When the player steps from one door to an adjacent door, the player would not be able to drop down and use keys to open the adjacent door.
09-04-2021 at 02:24 PM
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mrimer
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I appreciate the feedback.

I've made this logic change. Now stepping from a crate does not push an adjacent crate.

New patch .exe available here.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
09-07-2021 at 02:45 PM
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