Chaco
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File: picklecellar_aug15_1.hold (103.3 KB)
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Hi,

I've decided to begin work on an easier, simpler, and more approachable / less scary DROD hold than some of my previous works. My goal is to make a hold that's fun to play, not too frustrating if someone gets stuck on it, and is somewhat instructive about DROD mechanics - in other words, the perfect hold to recommend a new player start out with. If some enterprising new forumgoer joins up, and wants to know which of my holds to play first, I'd really like to say "Play Pickle Cellar first".

To that end, I'm heavily limiting the number of elements I'm using, and trying to design the hold so that all the game mechanics are easily discovered through experimentation and presented in such a way that the player knows what to expect, and won't have to look anything up.

So, have a look, and feel free to comment. Veterans should be able to blast through pretty quickly, but I bet it'll still be fun to do so. And hey, you can compete for high scores on some rooms too.

Current status: Submitted to Hold Administrators

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-17-2015 05:16 PM]

Nuntar
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Awesome! I love this style of puzzle -- no confusing interplay of different elements, just straightforward and surprisingly tricky logic.

Unhinged Storehouse

Suitably easy first level. Should be accessible to new players (at some point I'll try Jonathan out on this level and tell you how it goes).

2S - Don't know if you plan to add challenges to this hold, but there's an obvious opportunity here (strike the lower orb first).

3S1E - Knowledge of vertical preference required. Could be avoided by moving the escape at (21,21) one tile over?

4S1W - This is the introduction to roach queens? It's not hard, but the sheer number will be offputting to beginners. I remember Jonathan's reaction to Bubble Wrap: Q&S: 2S1W, which has nine queens but no starting roaches....

4S1E - No previous introduction to red doors (for accessing the secret).

I love 4S2E Even if we can't steal your talent for Entry Point, would you mind if I made some rooms based on your ideas?

Unkempt Chambers

The non-E rooms, except 2S1W, are a notch easier than the rest of the level, and make a nice transition between the first level and the eastern rooms. I would like this to be explicity stated somehow, to prevent the situation where the player enters the eastern rooms first and gets frustrated at the difficulty leap.

I solved 3S and 5S identically.

2S1W is strange. Was my solution unintended?

____________________________
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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
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Great, glad you're enjoying the hold so far!

Unhinged Storehouse

2S - Sure, I am planning on using some TSS elements later in the hold, so I'll install a challenge in a way that makes good sense.

3S1E - I think the player has to learn about vertical preference sooner or later, there are other places in the level to discover that through experimentation (particularly 3S2E which doesn't make any sense unless vertical preference is in play), and it's a secret room, so I think I'll leave it as-is. I appreciate the comment, though.

4S1W - I see what you mean, particularly because the entrance is a bit crowded with roaches (on purpose) so that it's hard to get at the queens before they spawn a bunch of roaches. I'll move this room into a secret room on the same level, and make the required room a bit easier.

4S1E - That's on purpose. Either the player can look at the red door and the red trapdoors and try to open the door immediately, or they can dismiss it, and get introduced to it on the next level, at which point they can come back to open this door if they so choose.

4S2E - Thanks. I came up with this one after realizing the other rooms on the level were a bit too mechanical and not really "deadly" enough, so here I both included some combat and a nifty little timer.

Unkempt Chambers

I'm a little loath to suggest any particular order to play the rooms in. In particular, I made the hack-and-slash section starting at 3E in order to give the wandering player something to do while they mulled over rooms like 2E and 1S1E.

Would you mind posting demos for 3S and 5S so I can see how you're approaching them? 5S is supposed to require some fancier footwork than 3S, taking full advantage of the fact you can move back and forth on the open yellow door.

Your solution to 2S1W was unintended, but is very easy to fix by moving my roach-trap widget one square east so you can only kill the queen from a square one column to the east of her column.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-09-2015 07:26 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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I've uploaded a new version that attends to Nuntar's comments above. Here's some new features:

- Challenge added to US 2S

- Old US 4S1W has been moved to 4S2W and made a secret; new 4S1W and 3S1W should be both easier and show off roach queen movement

- UC 3S and 5S have been fixed so you can't just walk in, stab the roach queen(s) and walk out anymore; you have to manipulate them outside of the inner chambers.

- New rooms UJ 2N5E, 2N6E and 3N4E.

EDIT:

Version 2 up, fixed some unintended solutions to UC 2E and UC 2S1E mentioned in chat today.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-10-2015 07:45 PM]

Nuntar
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Solved all the rooms so far. Comments:

Unhinged Storehouse

The new queens rooms are definitely an improvement. I don't like the location of the NW checkpoint, which is hard to tag when you're most likely trying to go over the wall to get at the queens while shielding yourself from the roaches below.

Unkempt Chambers

Another checkpoint problem: every move counts in 3E, so the outer checkpoints should be moved one square inward (they force you to take two orthogonal steps instead of one diagonal).

Other rooms have been commented on in chat.

Unchecked Jail

Really nice puzzles. My solutions felt intended, but I didn't always use all the room features -- in 3W I don't see what the isolated square of crumbly wall is for, and I didn't need all the trapdoors in 1N2W.

2W looks like it's going to be really nasty but isn't too bad

3N4E has no checkpoint.

1E is very sneaky, took me ages to spot the last place I could change direction.

2E is definitely the toughest room on the level -- solving makes me feel I've redeemed myself somewhat after that room in Beethro's Teacher Very nice linchpin.

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Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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File: Schik Pickle Cellar.demo (24.2 KB)
Downloaded 65 times.
License: Public Domain

This is pretty fantastic. Good linchpins, but very accessible to someone at my skill level. I don't really have comments per room but here's a demo pack for ya.


____________________________
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--Mahatma Gandhi

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Here's a new update, with Unchecked Jail completed with a couple of new rooms, and a new level available (Uncovered Caverns). The new level isn't quite finished yet, but I figured I'd publish a draft of it so you can see the layout and what sort of puzzles I'm planning on making for it.

Unchecked Jail is probably finished. I might add a new annex showing off how tar babies can't be burned on hot tiles, so I can exploit that in later puzzles, but we'll see. That level is already pretty big as it is, and I like how it's smaller but more challenging than Unkempt Chambers, which was bigger and probably fairly intimidating to novice players.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-21-2015 07:37 PM]

adS
Level: Master Delver

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As other people have said already, this is an excellent hold for beginners.

So far I have played through US only.

3S1E maybe hard for beginners...

I wonder if the theme of crossing diagonals appears a bit too often:

1S2E, 3S, 4S2E

More tomorrow. I am an old man and have to go to bed

PS: Perhaps the challenge in 2S should be "Solve the room in less than 50 moves" which of course requires to press one orb only and is much harder.

____________________________
pauca sed matura

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[Last edited by adS at 04-21-2015 09:43 PM]

adS
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Unkempt Chambers

I think 2E is too difficult - it should not be required.

A simple "challenge" for 3E: Drop one Trapdoor only.

2N4E: Why are there 6 additional alcoves? Will the room re-appear later with more Queens?

2S1W: A bit difficult for beginners - change to secret room?

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Nuntar
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adS wrote: A simple "challenge" for 3E: Drop one Trapdoor only.

Or none.

As I said in chat, I've played all the new rooms in Jail and Cave now. I enjoyed all the rooms and didn't see any major problems. Jail 2N4E is a nice horde room. Cave has a set of good puzzles, and the secret is particularly interesting.

The golems in Cave 2E are rather tricky to deal with -- indeed, the room is harder than 1S2E. 2S2E is also surprisingly hard for an early room. 1S2E and 2S3E lack checkpoints.

PS: Perhaps the challenge in 2S should be "Solve the room in less than 50 moves" which of course requires to press one orb only and is much harder.

50 moves does actually give you enough time to release and kill the NE roach first, which gets rid of the main difficulty to this challenge.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 04-22-2015 09:50 PM]

adS
Level: Master Delver

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Nuntar wrote:

adS wrote: A simple "challenge" for 3E: Drop one Trapdoor only.

Or none.

Certainly!

How do you solve the room without dropping the trapdoor at (16,13)?
Please post a demo.

Most respectfully,

adS

____________________________
pauca sed matura

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
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Unhinged Storehouse

adS wrote: 3S1E maybe hard for beginners...

It's a secret room, and I don't think it should be too difficult as long as the player can realize why the room is becoming impossible and try to do something about it.

adS wrote: I wonder if the theme of crossing diagonals appears a bit too often:

1S2E, 3S, 4S2E

You're probably right; that's one of the methods I have within the constraints for rendering a room impossible to solve, and I have to be careful not to over-use it. I don't think it's bad at the current levels though.

Unkempt Chambers

adS wrote: I think 2E is too difficult - it should not be required.

It is one of the hardest rooms on that level, and this room and another room in Unchecked Jail both require roach manipulation skills much higher than any other room in the hold. I'd like to teach some of those skills in this hold, but I should figure out a better way to ramp up more gently. Hmm.

adS wrote: A simple "challenge" for 3E: Drop one Trapdoor only.

Easy enough to add. Done.

adS wrote: 2N4E: Why are there 6 additional alcoves? Will the room re-appear later with more Queens?

That room is hard enough without those 6 alcoves from 1N4E, especially with only 3 on the bottom - I think just adding a fourth on the bottom would make that room way harder than I'd like to include in this hold.

adS wrote: 2S1W: A bit difficult for beginners - change to secret room?

It's pretty tricky, especially since it involves both a lot of counting path lengths and carving paths for roaches to follow. But it's not hard enough to be a secret room. So I'm going to move it up a level, swapping it with Unchecked Jail 1N3W, which was a room too easy for that level but probably about right for this one.

Uncovered Cave

Nuntar wrote: The golems in Cave 2E are rather tricky to deal with -- indeed, the room is harder than 1S2E.

I didn't think they were that bad since you could basically just kill them in that hallway provided for them. I thought 1S2E was harder since it involved some subtlety with handling the two middle golems properly.

Nuntar wrote: 2S2E is also surprisingly hard for an early room.

Yeah, it is. I'm fine with the way it is now, though.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-22-2015 11:16 PM]

adS
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 214
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Nuntar wrote:

PS: Perhaps the challenge in 2S should be "Solve the room in less than 50 moves" which of course requires to press one orb only and is much harder.

50 moves does actually give you enough time to release and kill the NE roach first, which gets rid of the main difficulty to this challenge.

Which difficulty?

Anyway, please post a demo.

Best wishes,

adS


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adS
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Unkempt Chambers 2S2E has a 1 move solution.

Now to UJ...

Best wishes,

adS


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pauca sed matura

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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adS wrote:
Unkempt Chambers 2S2E has a 1 move solution.

That's entirely on purpose, so that that room won't be highscoreable.

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adS
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A simple challenge for Unkempt Chambers 1S2W and 1S1W - I think this should be allowed for a simple room

Solve the room without turning your sword.

Regards,

adS

PS

Unhinged Storehouse, 4S1W and 4S2W: solve without turning sword.

It's getting boring, I know. Does anybody know better challenges?


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pauca sed matura

adS
Level: Master Delver

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Unchecked Jail

1N3W: Is marvelous - minimal art with Drod.

1N5E: I don't need the trapdoors at (5,5), (5,6), (9,5) and (9,6). Challenge?

Uncovered Cave

2S1E requires a nice trick

I think 1S is too simple for this level.

2S5E is much simpler than it looks at first sight. Is it finished already?

2S2E is surprisingly difficult.



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pauca sed matura

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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adS wrote:
Unchecked Jail
1N5E: I don't need the trapdoors at (5,5), (5,6), (9,5) and (9,6). Challenge?

Yeah, that challenge is going to be in the next version.

Uncovered Cave

I think 1S is too simple for this level.

Yes, I agree. I don't want to just make it a trapdoor puzzle or a version of Unkempt Chambers 3N3E, so I'll have to just think about what exactly I want to do with it.

2S5E is much simpler than it looks at first sight. Is it finished already?

It's broken in the current published version, but the next version has a small change that should enforce the intended solution and make the room interesting again.

2S2E is surprisingly difficult.

Yeah, it is. Well, I made it difficult on purpose, but I didn't want it to be super-hard. Maybe I could revise it to act mostly the same but not depend on the tricky trick of

.

On the other hand, that trick has to be tought sooner or later. Probably better to put it in a simple room now.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-24-2015 07:55 PM]

adS
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 214
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Unchecked Jail
1N5E: I don't need the trapdoors at (5,5), (5,6), (9,5) and (9,6). Challenge?

Yeah, that challenge is going to be in the next version.

Wouldn't it be nicer to create a secret room with the trapdoors replaces by pits?

I like those rooms that are sightly different.

Regards,

adS

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pauca sed matura

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[Last edited by adS at 04-25-2015 01:33 PM]

adS
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File: drodscreen3.jpg (163.1 KB)
Downloaded 944 times.
License: Public Domain

Unchecked Jail

1N3W: Striking every orb once is certainly the intended solution but first I didn't even think it possible and fiddled around with more complicated solutions.

I guess it is unlikely (at least for me) that such a simple solution exists. I really don't know. What do other testers think?

Challenge(???): Solve Unchecked Jail 1N3W striking every orb only once.

2W: Remove two alcoves or add a secret room with two alcoves removed:



Perhaps even a third (one tile) alcove May be unnecessary? Probably not.

The Entrance: Are you going to introduce other weapons later? If so, you might reuse this room with another weapon. It is easy to solve the room without killing any roach with the sword.


Best wishes, adS

Edit:

Uncovered Cave

2E: A candidate for a secret room: Add a golem at (9,9)

2S3E: Room can be solved with two golems only. So you may either create a secret room with two golems or add a challenge like "Kill one golem on Checkmark with a suitably placed checkmark".

I really enjoy testing your new hold

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[Last edited by adS at 04-25-2015 02:20 PM]

adS
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File: drodscreen4.jpg (156.8 KB)
Downloaded 928 times.
License: Public Domain

Another (joke) variant of Uncovered cave 2S3E:


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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Here's another update.

The fourth level has been renamed to "Unsealed Stronghold" so we no longer have two UC levels in the hold - now we have UC and US.

Unsealed Stronghold has a bunch of new puzzles and is now complete.

To address Unkempt Chambers 2E being pretty hard and demanding of manipulation skills for its placement, I made a new, easier roach manipulation room to put there, moved that room to Unchecked Jail 3W, and moved old Unchecked Jail 3W to Unsealed Stronghold 4E.

Unkempt Chambers 3E and Unchecked Jail 1N5E have their challenges implemented.

--

Note, however, that I still haven't changed Unsealed Stronghold 1S, so I'll have to give that room a bit more thought.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-28-2015 02:00 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

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Solved all the new rooms except 1N6E. Good stuff as always. 1N4E is very nice. I tried all kinds of complex stuff in 5E, then the solution turned out to be very simple. 6E is nice and not difficult; I suppose it's intended that I only had to hit two orbs.

7E is interesting, but the beginning part is much too hard -- it took ages to find a pattern that allowed me to avoid blocking (15,17). I don't know what the best way to improve this would be. Perhaps just change the terrain around the first orb so you don't need to hit it facing west, so you get more time to get ready to deal with the golems?

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adS
Level: Master Delver

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Unsealed Stronghold

Strange: Nuntar says "I tried all kinds of complex stuff in 5E, then the solution turned out to be very simple". I thought the room is too simple since the solution is obvious.

On the other hand I have no idea how to solve 6E.

Every orb switches two doors. Therefore it is impossible to open all five doors.

What is wrong here?

1S5E requires some (simple) planning.

2S4E: Is something missing here? As it is the room is trivial.

2S3E: As I already said: You need two golems only.


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pauca sed matura

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Nuntar wrote:
7E is interesting, but the beginning part is much too hard -- it took ages to find a pattern that allowed me to avoid blocking (15,17). I don't know what the best way to improve this would be. Perhaps just change the terrain around the first orb so you don't need to hit it facing west, so you get more time to get ready to deal with the golems?

Yeah, that's probably what I'll do, and maybe change the western golem cage a bit so there's some more room to work with.

adS wrote:
On the other hand I have no idea how to solve 6E.

Every orb switches two doors. Therefore it is impossible to open all five doors.

What is wrong here?

What is obvious to you might not be obvious to someone else - and what is obvious to someone else might not be obvious to you!

2S4E: Is something missing here? As it is the room is trivial.

It's supposed to be that easy, and also to show off two things: one, that evil eyes can see over water, and second, that the two diagonal passages are the same, despite the graphics - the east one made of circular stepping stones can still be stepped over. (This is something that new players have had trouble spotting sometimes, and it's still hard to spot sometimes when you're not looking for it - that quarter-circular tiles might be adjacent to each other even if there's a stream going between them.) I'll try not to be too abusive with water-connections in this way, but crossovers like this might become necessary at some point.

2S3E: As I already said: You need two golems only.

Challenge: You actually only need one golem. But I'll keep three in the room anyway.

--

Another challenge: in 7E, kill all golems on sandy/lit floor (that eyes can see). Almost definitely not going to script this one, but maybe I'll post it on the Challenges board after the hold is published.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-29-2015 08:20 PM]

adS
Level: Master Delver

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Chaco wrote:

adS wrote:
On the other hand I have no idea how to solve 6E.

Every orb switches two doors. Therefore it is impossible to open all five doors.

What is wrong here?

What is obvious to you might not be obvious to someone else - and what is obvious to someone else might not be obvious to you!

____________________________
pauca sed matura

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3685
Registered: 10-06-2005
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New update once again!

Unkempt Chambers

- New room at 3S1W, to show off a little bit more crumbly wall puzzle potential. Should be a fairly easy break from the rest of the level.

Unsealed Stronghold

- The old room 1N6E was pretty hard, so I moved it to become a secret room in 1N7E. I made a new room 1N6E that's a bit easier and may give a hint as to how to solve 1N7E.

- I decided to keep 1S the way it is. However, there is a new secret room 1S1W that may be of interest.

- Added a few more eyes to 2S4E to more clearly show what a vision token does.

Unlicensed Laboratory

- Lots of new puzzles here - 2S1W, 2S, 2S1E, 2S2E, 2S3E, 3S1W, 3S, 3S2E, and 4S1E are all ready to be played and commented on. I think they should be mostly reasonable for new players who managed to complete the previous two levels. (Maybe the secret 3S2E is a bit hard, but, well, I'll find a place for it.)

The level isn't done yet, but in the spirit of incremental and frequent updates I might as well show what I've got so far.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-11-2015 08:34 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4972
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Solved all the new rooms. Comments:

UC 3S1W -- nice and simple, good linchpin.

US 1N6E -- definitely easier than the secret room (which I've also solved now).
1S1W -- nice variant, definitely trickier than the other.

Unlicensed Laboratory

2S1W is definitely my favourite room (perhaps even in the entire hold), a really nice stumper with a good solution. 2S2E is a decent timer room, but the second blob was frustratingly hard to do in time. As for the secret variant,

2S1E -- as mentioned in chat, could have a challenge for getting a 44-combo.

3S1W and 3S were good puzzles once I'd worked out what the rooms were asking me to do, which always takes some effort when there are so many orbs and doors. Not that I'm complaining, because it's always worth it in the end. Very much a Chaco style of room. 4S1E, by contrast, was reminiscent of puzzles in Bavato's and Beethro's Teacher... was it meant to need more than one mud baby? I only needed one.

The other secret, 3S2E, is a really nice trapdoor puzzle -- I'm glad that it gives you plenty of area to work with. It's reminiscent of the JtRH 6 secret, except more lenient

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-11-2015 10:41 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Here's a minor update based on Nuntar's chat comments and some investigative work of my own:

Unlicensed Laboratory

- Main change for the immediate update: 2S2E's east timer has been made a bit easier by reducing the size of the mud blob. More checkpoints added to 2S2E and 2S3E.

- Fixed an unintended solution to 3S by adding another orb airlock that closes some more doors

- Fixed Nuntar's unintended solution to 4S1E by adding another closing door (that is then re-opened). This should make it impossible to solve with just one loose mud baby.

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adS
Level: Master Delver

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Unsealed Stronghold

1S7E: I don't need the orb at /34, 26)

1S5E: What is the purpose of the left half of the room?

2S5E is much better now, indeed.


How do I leave the level? Do I have to play the next level in the editor?

Unlicensed Laboratory

2S1E: Much easier than it looks at first sight
2S1W: is excellent - and tricky

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