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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Bavato's Dungeon (Assorted puzzles and a story)
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Author Name:Wesley Chua
Submitted By:agaricus5
Hold Name:Bavato's Dungeon
Theme:Assorted puzzles and a story
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:16
Number of Rooms:227
Number of Monsters:8973
Version:DROD: Architect's Edition
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:10 (+14 / -4)
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Geiler Hengst
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (0)  
First of thx a lot for the tipps, especially the one with clicking the orbs helped a lot...

Still i am not sure about this hold... Definitly a lot of work was spend to build it and you see in each and every room that the author spent a lot of time to make it work smoothly and everything...

I am now in the middle or even and of level 2 and i am still stuck in rooms full with orbs which open doors to little rooms filled with monsters... Killing 50 monsters to finish a room is fun, killing 500 is simply boring or pointless. But still i will probably play one one more level and see if it becomes more interesting...

Dont get me wrong i really see that this hold is wellbuild probably its just the wrong kind of rooms personally for me...
04-30-2006 at 01:36 PM
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michthro
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+2)  
To answer Geiler's question, I recommend that you play on. The levels are highly themed, and it's only the first level where orb puzzles is the theme. Speaking of orb solvers, the ones available can only be used in cases where all orbs can be reached at all times, so they won't be much use here.

Let me try and put this hold in perspective. When I first played it two years ago, I loved every second of the who-knows-how-many hours it took me to complete it. It was absolutely awesome. When I replayed it not so long ago, I have to admit that I felt a little disappointed. It had some great rooms and all, but somehow I couldn't understand why I enjoyed it so much the first time. I also noticed that I'm not the only one who finds replaying it not all that much fun. Looking at the high scores, very few people have bothered to upload a score for anywhere near all the rooms (and those are people who have conquered it).
So here's what I think. If this hold were published today, some people might shoot it down for one or more of the following reasons:
-Level 1 with it's orb puzzles.
-Trapdoors under tar.
-Long, tedious horde rooms.
-Overdoing good puzzle ideas.
-A general feeling that it's difficult for the wrong reasons. The difficulty lies not so much in what you have to do, as in the actual execution. It's all about being very good at basic skills. You have some enormous job to do, and you have to do it efficiently, without making any mistakes.

However, remember that this is an old hold. Some things have changed. At the time it was published, people weren't yet sick of orb puzzles, for one thing. It was intended to be very difficult (which it still is), and it met the demands of those looking for a real challenge. (And it was all very well done. You won't, for instance, find a single checkpoint placement problem.)

All in all, this is still a very good hold, and a definite must-play for those who like a challenge. It may have some features that aren't very popular in the "modern" architectural climate, so to speak, but see that in context, and don't let it stand between you and that "I've conquered Bavato's!" feeling, which every self-respecting delver must sooner or later experience.
04-30-2006 at 01:54 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (0)  
Don't forget that the warp room in 1W of level 1 is still there, if you want to jump around and try the different levels. I don't think anyone will think badly of you...this is probably the most difficult hold out there...although Perfection may have trumped it by now.

Game on,

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04-30-2006 at 04:06 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+1)  
michthro wrote:
Let me try and put this hold in perspective. When I first played it two years ago, I loved every second of the who-knows-how-many hours it took me to complete it. It was absolutely awesome. When I replayed it not so long ago, I have to admit that I felt a little disappointed. It had some great rooms and all, but somehow I couldn't understand why I enjoyed it so much the first time. I also noticed that I'm not the only one who finds replaying it not all that much fun. Looking at the high scores, very few people have bothered to upload a score for anywhere near all the rooms (and those are people who have conquered it).
So here's what I think. If this hold were published today, some people might shoot it down for one or more of the following reasons:
-Level 1 with it's orb puzzles.
-Trapdoors under tar.
-Long, tedious horde rooms.
-Overdoing good puzzle ideas.
-A general feeling that it's difficult for the wrong reasons. The difficulty lies not so much in what you have to do, as in the actual execution. It's all about being very good at basic skills. You have some enormous job to do, and you have to do it efficiently, without making any mistakes.

However, remember that this is an old hold. Some things have changed. At the time it was published, people weren't yet sick of orb puzzles, for one thing. It was intended to be very difficult (which it still is), and it met the demands of those looking for a real challenge. (And it was all very well done. You won't, for instance, find a single checkpoint placement problem.)

All in all, this is still a very good hold, and a definite must-play for those who like a challenge. It may have some features that aren't very popular in the "modern" architectural climate, so to speak, but see that in context, and don't let it stand between you and that "I've conquered Bavato's!" feeling, which every self-respecting delver must sooner or later experience.
Sorry to dredge this thread back up, but I just want to reply to this comment, since I missed it in my absence.

After I made the hold, there were quite a lot of things that I did regret quite a lot about it (most notably the bugs and trivial rooms), and hope not to make similar "almost" mistakes in the future when building holds. I think one of the things that was often excessive was the demanding nature of each room in terms of a specific theme or idea, such as manipulating a large tar mass, for example. The mentality that I was in when building many rooms was one where I tried to make a room test as many aspects of a type of skill that I could think of at once. This was perhaps a kind of mistake, since it does require a lot of skill to understand how the room needs to be completed, and it means that a player is almosnt trapped in a room until that skill is completely mastered. Also, I guess that large horde rooms were overdone for the same sort of reason; a room would need to be completed before progress could be made, and so it could be frustrating to have to kill so many monsters over and over simply because you haven't completely mastered the techniques required (or you keep making errors).

I guess that in future, economising on horde numbers more would be a better idea, or splitting hordes up into several rooms, as is avoiding requiring too many specialised aspects of a skill to be learned and used simultaneously in one room.

The one thing that I will mention is that many rooms, were, however, not intended to be completed entirely without mistakes (i.e. as efficiency rooms). I often tried to design rooms with safe points where you could wait and protect yourself until you felt you were able to continue, without jeopardising your chances of conquering it. I guess I intended rooms to be viewed as being divided into smaller chunks that each individually demanded precision and understanding of the room's mechanics, but which could be completed at any time, and occasionally in a variable order.

So overall, building the hold has been a valuable learning experience; I think I understand better what good hold design is about, and will try to build on that next time I construct any subterranean dwellings.

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09-27-2006 at 01:59 AM
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Remlin
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+1)  
On level 9 (The Floodgates), leaving 1N4E through the south exit before conquering 3E makes it impossible to backtrack and complete the level, unless I'm missing a secret passage somewhere. (Thank you for the warp room.)
10-02-2006 at 02:55 AM
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agaricus5
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Remlin wrote:
On level 9 (The Floodgates), leaving 1N4E through the south exit before conquering 3E makes it impossible to backtrack and complete the level, unless I'm missing a secret passage somewhere. (Thank you for the warp room.)
Erm...

That's quite embarassing, actually.

Ahem. I can't change it now, really, but thanks for pointing it out to me.

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10-02-2006 at 01:23 PM
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captainzakku
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+1)  
I suppose I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to say nice job on this hold. I'll skip any constructive criticism and just pick out some of my favorite rooms:

L10 1S 1E
Click here to view the secret text


L4 2S 2W, and others of this variety.
Click here to view the secret text


L4 2E - For an extra challenge (as if the hold needed it)
Click here to view the secret text


L6 1E, and the harder version L13 3E
Click here to view the secret text


L13 3E Warning, partial room solution
Click here to view the secret text


I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. Nice job again :thumbsup , with all the hours I spent playing it, I can only imagine how much time and effort went into building it. At some point I build up the resolve to finish L13 2N 3E, which just looks brutal.

-Zack

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10-06-2006 at 11:16 PM
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jbluestein
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I'm nowhere near done with this hold, but I felt like commenting anyway.

This was one of the first holds I tried playing after finishing JtRH, and I don't think I was really expecting something this difficult.

That said, I obediently slogged through most of the first three levels without too much trouble. Then I hit a roadblock.

OK, two roadblocks.

Level 3:1N and Level 3:1N3E both beat me like a gong for months. Every so often I'd jump back into it, make a try, and give up in frustration.

Well, no longer. I fortified myself, girded my loins, and waded into battle. And you know what? It wasn't that bad. Comparatively, anyway.

From there I was able to sail through the next four levels with only a few hangups. Not that they weren't hard (because they were), just that I felt up to the challenge.

Now I'm about 70% of the way through Level 8, and it's tough but manageable. One of those double-mimic puzzles is taunting me, but I at least have other rooms to do first so I'm avoiding it for now.

Overall? I love the hold. Very difficult (even by comparison with the multitude of other really difficult holds out there), but really well-crafted and generally just fun to play. I was particularly impressed with Level 7, which had all sorts of trapdoor puzzles, all very different. (Uh, yeah...no thanks for 1N2E. Ouch.)

So I'm a little more than halfway, sheer count-wise. Probably a lot less based on difficulty. We'll see.

Expect to hear more from me on this one in another year or so. :)

Josh

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01-04-2007 at 07:03 PM
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jbluestein
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Regarding Level 12:

Has anyone gone to the trouble of aggregating the room images for this level in order to allow the maze to be perused all at once?

Josh

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01-10-2007 at 03:11 PM
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Chaco
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Since not all the room images are available to people without CaravelNet (unless there's something funky with "have you visited this room" status) there's no incentive for people like me to do it.

I agree that it's a good idea though - having visited this level by way of the Warp Room I can say that it's not terribly appealing.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-10-2007 03:29 PM]
01-10-2007 at 03:29 PM
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Briareos
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Chaco wrote:
Since not all the room images are available to people without CaravelNet (unless there's something funky with "have you visited this room" status) there's no incentive for people like me to do it.
Well, an HTML file stitching the room images from the H&S search page together should do it - you'll only see the rooms you've been to. But contrary to KDD level 13, a flood fill isn't going to do you any good this time... *g*

Of course, I haven't played that level yet, so I'm not really able to make said HTML map... ;)

np: Autechre Live via XLTronic 28.12.2006

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01-10-2007 at 04:40 PM
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jbluestein
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File: forcemaze.html (2.6 KB)
Downloaded 160 times.
License: Public Domain
icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+3)  
jbluestein wrote:
Regarding Level 12:

Has anyone gone to the trouble of aggregating the room images for this level in order to allow the maze to be perused all at once?

Well, ask and ye shall...have to do it yourself.

Using as a template Rabscuttle's excellent aggregated map of Figure Or Ground, I have created an HTML file that displays all 26 rooms of Bavato's Force Arrow Maze in their proper position.

A few things about it:

1) It doesn't fit on the screen. I'm not sure if there's any way it can be made to, or if it would be legible if it did.

2) I don't know if all of the images will be visible to anyone who hasn't already visited all the rooms. This isn't really an issue, since, if you haven't visited the rooms, why are you looking at the map, anyway?

3) Be warned that solving this maze leads you to Bavato's Level 13, at which point you'll be longing for the good old days in the Force Arrow Maze.

(I haven't actually solved the maze yet, but I did bypass it and take a shot at the first room on Level 13. Ouch.)

Here it is.

Josh


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01-11-2007 at 06:15 PM
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eytanz
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The map is visible even if one cannot normally see the room images (which I cannot).

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[Last edited by eytanz at 01-11-2007 06:33 PM]
01-11-2007 at 06:33 PM
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jbluestein
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eytanz wrote:
The map is visible even if one cannot normally see the room images (which I cannot).

Do you think that's a problem? I guess that means that agaricus set up the level to not display rooms you haven't visited, but doesn't categorically block viewing access like some holds do.

I'll remove the file if anyone thinks it's a problem...I'm just pulling images off of Caravel, though.

Josh

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01-11-2007 at 06:34 PM
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eytanz
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I don't think this is a problem in this specific case. It's no different that just posting any other spoilery map - sure, it's a spoiler, but it's there for people who want one.

The fact that it's possible to bypass the room hiding this way is problematic in general, however. I'd post a bug thread in the site forum but I don't actually know what you did, so maybe it's best if you do that.

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01-11-2007 at 06:45 PM
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Schik
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Don't bother with the bug report - I see this and understand the bug.

Edit: And the bug is fixed. You can still see these fine if you've been there, but if you haven't, you can't - as specified by the architect.

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[Last edited by Schik at 01-11-2007 07:06 PM]
01-11-2007 at 06:49 PM
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Chaco
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However, you still can't see any of them (besides the entrance and exit) if you don't have CaravelNet. Another reason to give Erik ten dollars I suppose.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-11-2007 08:17 PM]
01-11-2007 at 08:16 PM
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Syntax
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Well, to confirm... I haven't been there, and I can't see the map.
01-11-2007 at 08:26 PM
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Stefan
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I have a map that I used to solve the labyrinth. It's a 3-color map (I think), so it's a bit easier to look at than using room screenshots. If anyone's interested, I could post it here.

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01-11-2007 at 09:08 PM
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jbluestein
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Stefan wrote:
I have a map that I used to solve the labyrinth. It's a 3-color map (I think), so it's a bit easier to look at than using room screenshots. If anyone's interested, I could post it here.

Assuming it doesn't actually contain additional solving information (I'm not ready for that yet), I'd definitely be interested.

Josh

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01-11-2007 at 09:09 PM
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Stefan
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File: Bavatos Dungeon Maze.png (169.6 KB)
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+1)  
Okay then.

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[Last edited by Stefan at 01-11-2007 09:18 PM : problems attaching file]
01-11-2007 at 09:16 PM
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jbluestein
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Lucky solver #12!

Just this morning, I finished the last few rooms of Level 14 of Bavato's Dungeon and escaped, making me what looks like the 12th person to actually conquer this hold.

It was quite a wild ride.

I did leave a few loose ends behind, though:
2 non-required rooms on Level 10
The entire Force Arrow Maze (Level 12)
1 non-required room on Level 13

I'll probably try to polish those off soon. It's either that or go back to that secret tar room in Beethro's Teacher (shudder).

Level-by-level impressions:

Click here to view the secret text


Overall, an excellent experience. I give this hold a 10, with 9 brains of difficulty.

I look forward to (and dread) the next hold agaricus produces...

Josh


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01-19-2007 at 04:07 PM
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mxvladi
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Conquered!

Awesome hold. Quite tough, too.

The only thing I didn't like about this hold is that first 3 levels are easier/more tedious compared to later ones(although level 2 1S and level 3 1N/1N 3E were nice). At level 4 things started getting harder and better.

I saw some very interesting puzzles in this hold, like manipulating wraithwing while other wraithwings are standing around, or manipulation of brained roach queens. For AE hold, such puzzles are truly impressive.

I didn't mind the length of some of rooms - there're quite few long rooms nowadays, and I'd like to see more of them. Some of rooms would be slightly easier if they would be shorter, too.

My favourite rooms were: Level 9 1N 2E, level 10 1S 4E and level 13 3E.

Also, I must say I liked level 13 2N 3E slightly more than 1N 2E.

Overall, 7,5 brains and 10 for fun.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 04-19-2010 05:05 PM]
04-15-2010 at 05:16 PM
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Tahnan
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Remlin wrote:
On level 9 (The Floodgates), leaving 1N4E through the south exit before conquering 3E makes it impossible to backtrack and complete the level, unless I'm missing a secret passage somewhere.
Having found this post after doing exactly what was described above: would it be possible to update the hold, if not with (say) a door-opening orb in the southeast corner past the green door (where it wouldn't affect anyone's demos), at least with a scroll in the room, or in the previous room, warning people about this bug?
04-20-2010 at 05:08 AM
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jbluestein
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Tahnan wrote:
Remlin wrote:
On level 9 (The Floodgates), leaving 1N4E through the south exit before conquering 3E makes it impossible to backtrack and complete the level, unless I'm missing a secret passage somewhere.
Having found this post after doing exactly what was described above: would it be possible to update the hold, if not with (say) a door-opening orb in the southeast corner past the green door (where it wouldn't affect anyone's demos), at least with a scroll in the room, or in the previous room, warning people about this bug?

There are, unfortunately, quite a few holds of older vintage that have backtracking problems of this sort. King Dugan's Dungeon is probably the most obvious case.

In the past there was a push to fix the holds that were even more broken -- unmasterable due to inaccessible secret rooms, or even unconquerable in some cases.

In the case of Bavato's, I am pretty sure that agaricus5 is still around, at least intermittently (he did contribute a room to Way Forward, IIRC). I can't actually speak formally for the HA team, but it is my opinion that if agaricus5 were to present an updated version of this hold that corrected the backtracking issue without breaking any demos, that it would meet with approval from the HAs.

Having the hold modified by someone else I would be less comfortable with -- I would want agaricus5 to approve such a thing, also it would require some significant mojo to do properly.

Josh

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04-20-2010 at 03:53 PM
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Tahnan
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While you're (hypothetically) fixing things: if you leave L11: 1S through the north exit, you're stuck. What's worse, going up the stairs at the start of Level 12 takes you to the beginning of Level 11, which puts you on the north side of 1S.
04-21-2010 at 04:32 AM
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RoboBob3000
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Tahnan wrote:
While you're (hypothetically) fixing things: if you leave L11: 1S through the north exit, you're stuck. What's worse, going up the stairs at the start of Level 12 takes you to the beginning of Level 11, which puts you on the north side of 1S.
Fixing the isue with the stair destinations would render this hold incompatible with DROD:AE, which only allowed for one entrance per level. If any change is made at all, I'd recommend limiting it to the room itself.

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04-21-2010 at 05:25 PM
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jbluestein
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
Tahnan wrote:
While you're (hypothetically) fixing things: if you leave L11: 1S through the north exit, you're stuck. What's worse, going up the stairs at the start of Level 12 takes you to the beginning of Level 11, which puts you on the north side of 1S.
Fixing the isue with the stair destinations would render this hold incompatible with DROD:AE, which only allowed for one entrance per level. If any change is made at all, I'd recommend limiting it to the room itself.

Right. And it's things like this that make going fixing old holds a can of worms.

I can envision an aesthetically unpleasing but functional way around the L11:1S issue. A better idea is probably out there.

But ultimately, I'm disinclined to delve into this particular issue.

Josh

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"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck
04-21-2010 at 05:38 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (+1)  
Ultimately, adding a warning scroll is, I think, harmless: doesn't affect demos, doesn't affect compatibility. Or if nothing's done, that's not the end of the world, but you can probably understand my frustration at encountering these things.
04-22-2010 at 07:28 AM
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jbluestein
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon (0)  
Tahnan wrote:
Ultimately, adding a warning scroll is, I think, harmless: doesn't affect demos, doesn't affect compatibility. Or if nothing's done, that's not the end of the world, but you can probably understand my frustration at encountering these things.

I agree that, at the very least, a warning scroll would be a good idea. I'd actually prefer to see the hold fixed, insofar as that's possible.

Josh

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"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck
04-22-2010 at 11:49 AM
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