key-smiter
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 06-15-2003
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Nice hold, well done . . . and even more impressive to me is that I cleared two rooms. (The real ones, the ones with monsters.)

Fanka
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 38
Registered: 12-09-2005
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Nice work! For me this hold came at a point that I had realised (after Bkethro's Teacher) that I was missing those "horde" rooms! Well done, Larry! It left me with a bit bitter taste though because I was too stupid and too patient in the last battle. The obvious naïve strategy makes the room need at least 9000 boring moves (my solution was about 10600 due to mistakes). I might try to do a better score later, but for now you can see my demo for an "everyone-can-do-but-stupid-and-boring-strategy". (Also I suspect that this wasn't the intended solution, but probably something like Doom's). I give it a difficulty of 9 (although I'm sure that a few months ago I would have given a 10) and 8 overall (maybe it deserves more, but I was really fed up with the last room -although I know that it is me alone to blame for not doing something smart-). Thanks, once again, Larry, and keep up the good work!

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[Last edited by Fanka at 06-26-2006 02:48 AM]

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

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Fanka wrote:
(Also I suspect that this wasn't the intended solution, but probably something like Doom's)

Larry told me he used close to 10000 moves as well...

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1913
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Yup, I'll admit it. I was ging to see how much I could optimize the final battle. I easily did it in under 9000 and could probably have trimmed another 1000 moves. Then I saw Henri's demo.

Bravo to Henri!

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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You mean your intended solution is the 10000 move way?! Good thing there's a shorter way, which I thought made a nice puzzle. (I did it more or less like Doom, only much less efficiently. 1500 odd moves.)

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

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michthro wrote:
You mean your intended solution is the 10000 move way?! Good thing there's a shorter way, which I thought made a nice puzzle. (I did it more or less like Doom, only much less efficiently. 1500 odd moves.)

Hey, hey, hey. I'd have found a reasonable solution some day. Maybe..

Has anyone ever played Caverns of Arimus? Ok, so that room was optional, but only wussies didn't complete it anyway.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
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larrymurk wrote: Has anyone ever played Caverns of Arimus? Ok, so that room was optional, but only wussies didn't complete it anyway.

So I'm a wussie. What do I care? At least I'm a sane wussie. Still can't believe that room.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2459
Registered: 11-14-2005
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That "Caverns of Animus" room is on my list of things to do. Low on the list, I admit. But I figure that when I get frustrated with things I can't solve, I'll load CoA and put in another hundred moves.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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After much work, I now have a massive three out of twelve rooms solved! I feel like a greatly underappreciated genius.

____________________________
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Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
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Is it just me, or are some rooms leagues easier than the others? I've found the rooms with roach queens but no brains to be fairly easy, and even quite straightforward, though I can't say I've been particularly efficient. 2N 1W was much easier than the Entrance for me, 2N 1E wasn't particularly tricky either, and 1S 2E felt more like Perfection with some queen manoeuvring rather than horde management.

Of course, the *other* rooms, particularly those ones with brains, are another matter altogether; I know I simply cannot get anywhere even remotely near solving them (or actually doing anything productive besides surviving, if that much).

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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I'd have to agree; the six rooms I've solved so far have been mostly based upon non-brained hordes. The others were brained hordes of less than 30 tar babies.

____________________________
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larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1913
Registered: 12-09-2004
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NEW VERSION UPLOADED 10/01/06

The only change is a minor revision to 2N1W. I just removed half of the tar mothers. It should be easier, right? Well, not really. It's (quite) a bit harder this way I'd say. Please complain to the management.


I'm sorry people might have to replay this room, but hopefully the spider will verify that demos for all other rooms should remain valid.

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 10-02-2006 12:32 AM]

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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Why did you do that?

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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Yeah, this seems like an arbitrary and pointless move. It's not like there was a trivial solution to the room before, or at least none that I could think of.

This really does not strike me as a legitimate update. You should have just waited and used the new version in a later hold. I think that by doing this you serve a terrible example to other hold authors.

____________________________
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[Last edited by eytanz at 10-02-2006 02:47 AM]

Syntax
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eytanz wrote:
Yeah, this seems like an arbitrary and pointless move. It's not like there was a trivial solution to the room before, or at least none that I could think of.

This really does not strike me as a legitimate update. You should have just waited and used the new version in a later hold. I think that by doing this you serve a terrible example to other hold authors.

Hmm... though a -3 may have been over-reacting... ?

Regardless of fairness, status should be remembered. I'm sure there's a good reason for the update... I just can't see it.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Well, if Larry has a reasonable explanation and decides to post it, I can easily mod him back up (I actually gave him -5 since I also modded down the hold karma). I have low tolerance to this kind of update abuse, and I did take status into consideration - this is someone who really should have known better. If it was a first-time architect or someone new to the boards I would have been more forgiving.

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Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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Seriously?

I asked larrymurk why he modified the hold... but now I have to ask *you* why you modded him down 5. We're talking about larrymurk here. At least let him respond first... it's not like he won't.

And please don't patronise anyone by "he's not a new author" business. We all know that. We also all respect him. That goes further than any personal opinion.

And please, also, don't now post a link to some thread where somehow this point of view is similarly discussed, because seriously, the context is confined to this thread. I'm asking larrymurk why he did it. Now let him answer.

-5! Geesh... :/

[EDIT]

And no, I didn't mod you down

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[Last edited by Syntax at 10-02-2006 03:29 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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I don't want to start a huge argument of this here. I feel that a -5 was justified. I think this sets a precedent that was *exactly* the kind of thing that should have been avoided. If Larry has a good explanation, he should have supplied it to begin with. I would have modded him down regardless of your post.

If someone disagrees with my previous post and wishes to downmod me for it, that's fine. I stand by my posts in this thread, and accept that it may cost me rank points. If Larry wants to stand by his decision, fine - I do *not* respect his decision to update the hold but I will respect his decision to stick to it if he wants. But he'll have to accept my downmod then.

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Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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eytanz wrote:
I don't want to start a huge argument of this here.

Of course you do... You always do.

eytanz wroteI feel that a -5 was justified.

That doesn't even make sense. He hasn't responded. I'd sooner -5 a new architect with a dire hold than downmod one of the most respected architects around. Would you -5 Erik for a late edit? Thought not. There's a good reason for that... it's called respect. larrymurk has deserved his, and you should acknowledge that by at least waiting for a response.

eytanz wroteIf someone disagrees with my previous post and wishes to downmod me for it, that's fine. I stand by my posts in this thread, and accept that it may cost me rank points.

Looks like you're in luck. Back to 0. Why anyone thought your actions were worth +1 is anyone's guess.

eytanz wroteIf Larry wants to stand by his decision, fine - I do *not* respect his decision to update the hold

Read that again. And again. You don't know the basis of his decision so how can you judge?

Seriously... chill out a bit, stick to your opinions and let the forum be a better place.

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Syntax wrote:

eytanz wrote:
I don't want to start a huge argument of this here.

Of course you do... You always do.

Come on. Let's keep personal attacks out of this. Disagree and discuss what this edit deserves by all means, but let's keep it civil.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Syntax wrote:

eytanz wrote:
I don't want to start a huge argument of this here.

Of course you do... You always do.

No. I never want to start a huge argument. I'm just really bad at avoiding it.

And in the spirit of which -

eytanz wroteI feel that a -5 was justified.

That doesn't even make sense. He hasn't responded.

So what? I'm rating him down for his original action, not for a putative response that may or may not happen. As I said above, if his response makes me change my mind, I'll mod him back up.

*I* didn't ask for a response. You did.

As I I'd sooner -5 a new architect with a dire hold than downmod one of the most respected architects around.

That's you, not me. We don't happen to be the same person.

Would you -5 Erik for a late edit? Thought not.

No, if Erik made a late edit of this sort to an official hold I'd rank him down a lot further than -5.

There's a good reason for that... it's called respect. larrymurk has deserved his, and you should acknowledge that by at least waiting for a response.

I have a lot of respect for Larrymurk. I don't consider modding someone down disrespectful. We clearly differ here. I also have a lot of respect for you (though it's apparently not mutual), but that wouldn't stop me from ranking you down if I felt circumstances warrented it.

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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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Holy crap, it's an alternate universe version of the Undergroun Civilization argument!

Except replace 'Rheb' with 'Larrymurk', and 'rating low' as 'modding down'!

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2459
Registered: 11-14-2005
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This is absurd. We shouldn't discourage experienced architects like this; this post simply didn't deserve a -5...what else do we need here, Banjooie? Oh, a proposal to thoroughly overhaul the modding system--is it designed to give feedback to posters, or to help readers find good/bad posts?

OK, but seriously:

I agree with Eytanz--Larrymurk is exactly the sort of person who should know better than to make a high-score-changing update to a hold, and from all appearances he did it for no reason other than to make the room harder. Which is, IMHO, absurd.

And, even if I didn't agree with Eytanz, I'd certainly recognize his right to mod as he sees fit. Larry did, after all, say "complain to the management", which is exactly what Eytanz did.

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

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eytanz wrote:
Yeah, this seems like an arbitrary and pointless move. It's not like there was a trivial solution to the room before, or at least none that I could think of.

The room didn't have any trivial solutions. The room itself, however, was fairly trivial compared to others in the hold, as I commented in one of my earlier posts in this thread. So yes, I can see why Larry might want to change it.

The biggest negative thing about this is how late it was made. This should've been changed in the testing (which was only done by Larry if I understood correctly?) or during the first few days after the release (when it was already known). This'll just waste score optimizers' work, and do little besides that.

At least this shouldn't affect the hold rating...

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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I happen to know for a fact that Larry made the change because the room was too easy. It didn't fit in. I'm sure he will say so himself, but I thought I'd mention it so long.

Considering that it was such an easy room, who exactly was done in by this change? Those who spent time optimising, i.e. myself and Rabscuttle. I agree with the change (and I had the #1), and I doubt Rabscuttle minds. We had a minor skirmish, while no-one else did more than conquer it, as far as I can tell. So what's the fuss about? Why punish Larry on the general grounds of making a high-score-changing update, without looking at the details of this case? I don't see anything wrong with this particular change. If you spent two minutes conquering a room in a hold that took you a couple of hours to conquer, what's the big deal? It was the equivalent of a 6-move room in an easy hold.

About Larry knowing better: Well, precisely. He does, which is why he wouldn't make a change unless he thinks it's not a problem. It's also, ironically, why he only made the change now. He wanted to, and should have, made the change soon after publishing, but precisely because he's so reluctant to make any kind of update (have you noticed?), he left it. Eventually the room got to him, he thought it's not a big deal, so he made an update.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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I really don't care that I lost the high-score, or that anyone else lost the high-score. I'm less worried about this particular room than about the precedent. If we start allowing room updates for "reasonable" cases, then over time more and more rooms will become "reasonable" until the term is no longer meaningful. I'd much rather there be an absolute principle of only updating when absolutely necessary. The idea that it should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis is exactly the one I'm against.

I view Larry as a role model for newer architects and as such I think he should be looking at the big picture beyond this individual room. Having one too-easy room in a hold is not a big deal. Opening a can of worms like this is. At least, that's my opinion and I stick by it.


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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Also, you know - modding someone down isn't "punishing" them. It's expressing dissatisfaction. Modding someone down a large amount is expressing a lot of dissatisfaction. But it's not punishment in and of itself, since it has no consequences.

I feel Larry made a really, really bad call here. I modded the post down because I wanted to indicate my feelings. Does that make me lower my esteem of Larry? No, actually, because this seems to me like an isolated incident. But my esteem of Larry isn't indicated by the number under his name in the forum, and therefore, I feel that I can lower the number under his name without a corresponding decrease in my esteem.

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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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As a thought: Why doesn't Larry just set the room unhighscorable?

In fact, there we go: If, months into the game, you wanna update a hold, make any rooms you've changed unhighscorable. Everybody loses the room, nobody's scrambling back to get the new one.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
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It is reasonable to consider that a theft of time from your fellows -- the ones who spent hours optimizing the room you now arbitrarily have declared not valuable.


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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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It's arguable that the update in and of itself has already done the same thing--except now someone else has the chance at the 100% optimal solution you had first.