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File: The Land of Sand.hold (65.4 KB)
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A hold all about sand!! Trust me, it is more exciting than that!

New Version!! Now with better scripting

Chaco
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Level 10 3S1W is impossible to pass through due to guard NPC. That combined with the force arrow in the room North of it makes the level impossible, and therefore the hold.

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eytanz
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Are you sure? There are two conquerers listed in the high scores.

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RoboBob3000
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Oh yeah, I meant to post about that room. Cheap scripting trick.

Edit: Whoops. The room I was thinking about was level 12 1e, which still has an even cheaper scripting trick. But yeah, just goof off a little longer in those rooms.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 06-15-2006 10:17 PM]

Tahnan
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
Oh yeah, I meant to post about that room. Cheap scripting trick.

Edit: Whoops. The room I was thinking about was level 12 1e, which still has an even cheaper scripting trick. But yeah, just goof off a little longer in those rooms.

Very cheap scripting tricks. (Also, to the authors: you might want to check up on "end-on-exit" sorts of scripting commands. There are a lot of rooms where the scripts still play after you conquer them, even though they no longer make sense.)

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
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Have you altered this hold in some way? It imports as a different hold to the one in Architecture.

Is the secret room on level 5 still not beatable?

tokyokid
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Chaco wrote:
Level 10 3S1W is impossible to pass through due to guard NPC. That combined with the force arrow in the room North of it makes the level impossible, and therefore the hold.

It is possible, but it is do to a scripting trick! You'll have to fiquire it out.

tokyokid
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Tahnan wrote:
(Also, to the authors: you might want to check up on "end-on-exit" sorts of scripting commands. There are a lot of rooms where the scripts still play after you conquer them, even though they no longer make sense.)

I'll try and do that with my next holds! Thanks!

RoboBob3000
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Speaking of next holds, why don't you go back and tidy up your current hold, "Roaches Revenge." Even though it is possible to find exit stairs, it's littered with several rooms that are impossible. It's not bad work either, it's just that it gets sloppy some times.

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tokyokid
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here's a new version of it! With better scripting and stuff

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
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Strange happenings! The last version you posted installed a new hold for me. This latest version has copied over the old version. Plus it now shows that I am only up to halfway through level 5, yet I have completed both versions.

BTW, it's *still* not possible to do the secret room in level 5, meaning you can only show the hold as 94% finished.

edit: You cleaned the scripting up a little too much. On level 9, if you complete 1S1E and then go east, you can't get to 1S because the golem is no longer there to trigger the orb. You end up stuck on the force arrows. And if you do 1S first, you can't get back. Also, if you miss the secret and go back to it after completing the rest of the hold, you then can't reach the exit as the golem isn't there to trigger the orbs in 2E.

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[Last edited by bandit1200 at 06-23-2006 10:14 AM]

Tuttle
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The secret room on level 5 is beatable, both in the previous version and the current one. At least in 2.0.14.1 for Windows it is.

bandit1200
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Tuttle wrote:
The secret room on level 5 is beatable, both in the previous version and the current one. At least in 2.0.14.1 for Windows it is.

Oops! So it is, my apologies to Tokyokid. I made the wrong assumption that things can only be hidden under tar and mud.

tokyokid
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Okay new version! Now you can travel through rooms on L9 easeier!

Syntax
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tokyokid wrote:
Okay new version! Now you can travel through rooms on L9 easeier!

Erm... The sentences "new version" and "With better scripting and stuff" make me cringe. Why an update?? Would you mind posting what actually changed and where? I don't want to trawl through all the rooms I've already played to see if one of my demos is no longer valid. As I've finished the hold, I think it would be nice to be told what I'd need to replay. This should be true for any updates, so please also keep updates down to an absolute minimum. And this is *even* more true for holds where you can't view hs online if you haven't completed said room. I would have no idea which rooms I have no longer completed, and so chances are I'd never have a highscore for that room despite, perhaps, spending an hour on optimising it originally.

In fact, I don't think any *difficult* room (ie with high drop off rates) should ever be modified if at least 1 player has completed it. That person could have spent hours battling away. By all means, (if people complain about its diffculty *a lot*) mark it unrequired but don't break someone's arduous demos. Pair this up with a hold which won't allow online viewing of unconquered rooms, and you've got a potentially very annoyed player (once he realises a lot later and probably by accident that "Oh! That room's changed! But I spent *hours* on the original... time to mark down this hold"). Long term, I just think it's a habit to avoid.

That said, I think you're a great architect with lots of variety and obviously, imagination. I just feel *very* strongly about the above (time is something I wish to *not* waste).

tokyokid
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Syntax wrote:
Erm... The sentences "new version" and "With better scripting and stuff" make me cringe. Why an update?? Would you mind posting what actually changed and where? I don't want to trawl through all the rooms I've already played to see if one of my demos is no longer valid. As I've finished the hold, I think it would be nice to be told what I'd need to replay. This should be true for any updates, so please also keep updates down to an absolute minimum. And this is *even* more true for holds where you can't view hs online if you haven't completed said room. I would have no idea which rooms I have no longer completed, and so chances are I'd never have a highscore for that room despite, perhaps, spending an hour on optimising it originally.

In fact, I don't think any *difficult* room (ie with high drop off rates) should ever be modified if at least 1 player has completed it. That person could have spent hours battling away. By all means, (if people complain about its diffculty *a lot*) mark it unrequired but don't break someone's arduous demos. Pair this up with a hold which won't allow online viewing of unconquered rooms, and you've got a potentially very annoyed player (once he realises a lot later and probably by accident that "Oh! That room's changed! But I spent *hours* on the original... time to mark down this hold"). Long term, I just think it's a habit to avoid.

I just changed the scripting so that it ends on room exit. But in one room if you exited,before you cross over the gate, then you could not come back because the Golem who strikes the orb to open the gate isn't there! So I took out that command. Nothing else about the archieture, or the rooms changed. It is still looks the same with slightly different and better scripting.

Thanks!

Remlin
Level: Master Delver
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tokyokid wrote:
Okay new version! Now you can travel through rooms on L9 easeier!

Well I'm stuck on level 9. The entrance was the last room on the level that I beat, but now I can't get out of 2 east. I just downloaded this hold today, so I assume I have the new version - but I don't really know how to make sure.

Syntax
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This room is definitely exitable. You may want to ask for any hints and tips on the "Hints and Solutions" board though as it may benefit others.

jbluestein
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Well, I just mastered this hold, and I have a few comments. Actually, I would probably call them complaints.

1) The scripting in this hold is very inconsistent, forcing you to wait in some cases in order to solve the room at all. This leads to varying degrees of frustration depending on the room.

2) The lack of walls in many rooms is very irritating. Or, more accurately, the fact that open spaces on the end of some walls do not consistently either lead to a new room or dead-end. I could probably live with it if there were no walls and the edges of rooms never went anywhere, but there are a number of places where a few specific blocks have to be entered in order to find a secret room. Conversely, there are also holes in walls that lead nowhere.

This reduces the late-stage gameplay to a bunch of move and push, since there is no visual feedback to indicate where a viable exit to a room might be.

The actual puzzles in this room are generally pretty good. Not difficult, but not bad. But the design issues are a big minus.

I give this hold a 4, with 4 brains of difficulty. My rating would be lower if the puzzles were less fun.

(I have enjoyed Tokyokid's other holds -- Island and Ice Cap Vision. So I expect I'll try more...but this was not my favorite.)

Josh

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tokyokid
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jbluestein wrote:

1) The scripting in this hold is very inconsistent, forcing you to wait in some cases in order to solve the room at all. This leads to varying degrees of frustration depending on the room.

Yeah, I understand. It was the first hold I ever worked on, but my 4th released. I would fix it, but I don't know what rooms have the problem.

2) The lack of walls in many rooms is very irritating. Or, more accurately, the fact that open spaces on the end of some walls do not consistently either lead to a new room or dead-end. I could probably live with it if there were no walls and the edges of rooms never went anywhere, but there are a number of places where a few specific blocks have to be entered in order to find a secret room. Conversely, there are also holes in walls that lead nowhere.
Once again, no offence, but I have no idea what rooms you're talking about.

(I have enjoyed Tokyokid's other holds -- Island and Ice Cap Vision. So I expect I'll try more...but this was not my favorite.)
Thanks for that. You could try roahces revenge or pitways. I also have a couple of holds (unpublished) on Archeture page.

Well, thanks for the feedback! If I can just know what rooms had problems, I would fix them.

jbluestein
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tokyokid wrote:

jbluestein wrote:

1) The scripting in this hold is very inconsistent, forcing you to wait in some cases in order to solve the room at all. This leads to varying degrees of frustration depending on the room.

Yeah, I understand. It was the first hold I ever worked on, but my 4th released. I would fix it, but I don't know what rooms have the problem.

That's fair. One of the rooms I was particularly frustrated with was Level 12: Once East. Having to wait for that guard to become a character took a long time to occur to me -- I mapped out the broken wall passages fully several times to make sure I hadn't missed anything.

2) The lack of walls in many rooms is very irritating. Or, more accurately, the fact that open spaces on the end of some walls do not consistently either lead to a new room or dead-end. I could probably live with it if there were no walls and the edges of rooms never went anywhere, but there are a number of places where a few specific blocks have to be entered in order to find a secret room. Conversely, there are also holes in walls that lead nowhere.

Once again, no offence, but I have no idea what rooms you're talking about.

It's a fairly widespread issue, but here are a few of the rooms that have this sort of problem (in no particular order):

Level 9: Entrance -- the mud at the bottom sits in what could be an exit but isn't.

Level 9: Twice East -- the arrows at the top look like they should lead to an exit.

Level 9: Once North, Thrice East -- broken wall at the top with no exit.

Level 10: Quarce South, Once West -- wide open space on east and west that leads nowhere.

Then there's Level 10: Twice North, Once West -- open on three sides. One side leads to a known room. One side leads nowhere. And one side leads nowhere...except for a single square that you can walk through.

That's a pretty good list for starters.

____________________________
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tokyokid
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jbluestein wrote:
It's a fairly widespread issue, but here are a few of the rooms that have this sort of problem (in no particular order):

Level 9: Entrance -- the mud at the bottom sits in what could be an exit but isn't.

Yeah that was I mistake. I'll fix it.

Level 9: Twice East -- the arrows at the top look like they should lead to an exit.
Thats so you can go into in order to save yourself from the snake.

Level 9: Once North, Thrice East -- broken wall at the top with no exit.

After you step on the trapdoor, you have nowhere to go, so you have to break the crumbly wall in order to step off the trapdoor.

Level 10: Quarce South, Once West -- wide open space on east and west that leads nowhere.
Okay, took that out too.

Then there's Level 10: Twice North, Once West -- open on three sides. One side leads to a known room. One side leads nowhere. And one side leads nowhere...except for a single square that you can walk through.
....and fixed that. Thanks for that! New version! I wouldn't download if you've already beaten, you'd have to start over.

silver
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After updating, any listings for "uninteresting rooms" you had set on the site were lost. the following 4 rooms contains monsters which are unreachable (or, in the last case, there's just no survival possible) and are impossible and should be (re-)marked uninteresting:

Level 03 - Desert                      | 5 North 
Level 11 - Rock Golem HQ               | 1 North 
Level 11 - Rock Golem HQ               | 2 North 
Level 12 - The Secret Underground Base | 4 South, 4 East 

(though, of course, you can still travel through the rooms and hold itself isn't impossible because of these rooms. no need to reupdate the hold, just remake some settings on the site)



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[Last edited by silver at 07-26-2006 02:29 AM]

tokyokid
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silver wrote:
After updating, any listings for "uninteresting rooms" you had set on the site were lost. the following 4 rooms contains monsters which are unreachable (or, in the last case, there's just no survival possible) and are impossible and should be (re-)marked uninteresting:

Thanks silver. I marked them as unintersting

jbluestein
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tokyokid wrote:

jbluestein wrote:
Level 9: Twice East -- the arrows at the top look like they should lead to an exit.

Thats so you can go into in order to save yourself from the snake.

Yeah, I understand what it's for, but if you're going to have holes in your walls tey ought to leave somewhere. For that room, I would have simply dropped the whole snake path down a block so the arrows could be in an alcove, clearly indicating that there was no northward path.

Level 9: Once North, Thrice East -- broken wall at the top with no exit.

After you step on the trapdoor, you have nowhere to go, so you have to break the crumbly wall in order to step off the trapdoor.

<cut and paste of previous response>

....and fixed that. Thanks for that! New version! I wouldn't download if you've already beaten, you'd have to start over.

Thanks!

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

tokyokid
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No problem!