Ezlo
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Roach Royalty Once South Thrice West's script replays. Beethro keeps saying how horrible the room is after clearing it. The room must have left permanent phycological scars or something.

EDIT: One thing I don't get is a lot of empty rooms that make it look good in the editor. Why are they there? You will mark them as uniteresting right?

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 07-27-2006 03:22 AM]

Chaco
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Oh, yeah, of course.

I can't actually make them visible in H&S either, or it'd give away the secret room locations, so it's going to be one of those editor-viewable things.

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Ezlo
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Okay then. Can't wait to see more! I'll still continue playing though, I haven't gotten through the tar level yet.

Also, there is a staircase in Roach Royalty that ends the hold, it's at Thrice South Thrice West

Chaco
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...which is supposed to go to a secret room. Shall fix.

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bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
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I restarted this hold since there were so many new rooms added. I like the new rooms in Air Attack (new wing! ha!) but I think you have the checkpoints in the wrong rooms. (From my POV, you understand.) I didn't need the checkpoints in 3S, but in 3S2E the sole checkpoint is only really useful for saving a few moves when restarting the room over and over, and over... again.
The only things amiss I have noticed so far are the ones Ezlo already reported.

Chaco
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Okay, I'll add another checkpoint. I liked that wing in that it teaches you a concept, refines it, then uses it twice in different fashions.

I like Thrice South because of the dilemma it poses: if you kill the roach queens, the arrows are then available for the wraithwings to get stuck on (which you can't allow to happen)

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Banjooie
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Level 4 1N4E stumps me. D: I have no idea how the heck to do this.

Chaco
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Gah, I've always been considering making that room easier, but then I solve it in a few tries and leave it alone...

The key to this room is figuring out how to kill the last wraithwing. The floor's all busted up, so you can't kill it against the side.



You can just go to level 5 and start testing at the entrance if you'd like to see the other rooms.

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Banjooie
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I can see a couple things? But no way to get the last wraithwing on them.

Edit: posting for help ftw, got it.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 07-27-2006 08:08 PM]

bandit1200
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Well, I finally managed without another checkpoint, in fact I only used it for restarting the room, so if I can do it, I imagine everyone else should be able to.

3S: I killed the queens, but made sure the WW's couldn't get onto the force arrows. I certainly learned a little about WW movement in those rooms, and enjoyed it while learning. Whether I will remember is a different matter.

Chaco
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Basically, if you're surrounded and one is next to you, refraining from killing it will cause you to die.

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bandit1200
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Level 6. You have a required but unreachable room at 3N2E, so the blue doors can't be dropped.

Chaco
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Alright, I just fixed those problems and attached the new file. I also added two new rooms to level VIII, since it didn't have any extras in the previous update.

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bandit1200
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L5, 2N2W. 3 F's in "difficult" on the scroll.

L6, 4N. I played straight through this level this time, but I remember in an earlier incarnation that I had to keep restoring and had to keep playing this room. Could probably do with a checkpoint before leaving the room.

L7, 3E. You can't return through this room. I thought this had been rectified in an earlier version?

L7, 1N1E. The trapdoors at 10,9 and 27,9 aren't needed.

Edit #2: L7, 1N2E. It's not very often I'm right, so I could be wrong again. I don't think it's possible to stop the roach at the right spawning, so as you can't move once you reach the mimic, you can't complete the room. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

Edit #3 for typo and L10. Ouch!

Oh, and is the room full of queens - I forget which level - possible? If so, could someone tell me how?

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[Last edited by bandit1200 at 07-28-2006 01:22 PM]

Chaco
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That would be level 2. All I can say is, keep killing them. Also, minimizing the amount of roaches spawning at any one time is a good idea.

I swear I looked at Level VII 3E and found it to be okay, but I'll look at it again.

EDIT:

Bandit, you were right - I intentionally designed this problem in by making sure the queen wouldn't spawn once, then get buried in her roaches. Fixed by keeping with the "early preview of new elements" fix with some strategically placed bombs.

Okay, you guys were right on all the rest of the counts. Fixed all things mentioned, except for VII 1N1E - I can't figure out which trapdoors aren't needed, so the average player at this point won't either.

Also, I replaced VI 4N1E (Ladders trapdoor puzzle) with a more fair one that doesn't require knowledge of level X trapdoor logic, and looks more like a ladder.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-28-2006 04:38 PM]

bandit1200
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Chaco wrote:
That would be level 2. All I can say is, keep killing them. Also, minimizing the amount of roaches spawning at any one time is a good idea.

Level 3, I just had another few goes at it. I really like this hold but I'll pass on that room. Some may find it a challenge but I've spent too much time on it as it is. Life is too short for trying one room over and over. (read between the lines: it says I aren't good enough )

Chaco
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Ah. In my opinion, the Deep Hold room is much harder, but that's fine. I guess it's just a hard secret room. Maybe I'll make it a bit easier, but I think the junction makes it more challenging than "go up the row and kill everything, repeat".

I'd like it if you guys played through both sides of level IX and gave me your opinions - especially on the secret rooms and the red doors.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-28-2006 05:21 PM]

bandit1200
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Chaco wrote:I'd like it if you guys played through both sides of level IX and gave me your opinions - especially on the secret rooms and the red doors.

I'd prefer to play "in game" rather than in the editor, and the room in level 7 is stopping me doing that. I've played a few of them and found no problems, but there's 4 rooms, and I'm guessing you know which ones, that I'd rather not have to go through twice.

Chaco
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...actually, in all of the restrictional challenges, there's a force arrow letting you back through. Or something. Which rooms do you mean?

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Kevin_P86
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Apparantly I never finished level 8 last time, so I have to do that before I can try 9.

By the way, Level 8 1S1E can most certainly be solved by using the decoy to distract either the top or bottom. That is the way I solved it both times... (last time when I didn't complete level 8, and this time when I'm trying to complete level 8).

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Kevin_P86
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Also, were you aware that Level 8: 2N2E is possible to solve without the mimic? I'm assuming you intended to use the decoys as obstacles to maneuver the mimic from the right to the left, but...

I'm not even sure what you could do to force it to be solved that way...

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Chaco
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uh... more roaches?

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Kevin_P86
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You'd need at least 5 on each side (the mimic can clear out one side itself), but yes I suppose that could work.

Also, it does not appear to be possible to get to the other half (the red half) of level 9 (or to level 10, for that matter), because every single staircase I can find (accessible or not) in level 9 ends the hold.

Edit: Because 1S and 1S1W are symmetrical except that the stairs in 1S1W are covered, I am going to assume that the intent was for the stairs in 1S (the ones covered by tar) to go to 1W. Is that so?

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[Last edited by Kevin_P86 at 07-28-2006 11:31 PM]

Chaco
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No, the intent is for a staircase in level X to go back to level IX. Sorry about that, I'll go fix it. The staircase at the end of the tar half of IX is supposed to go to X.

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Kevin_P86
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The problem with that is that there's a blue door in front of that staircase (assuming you mean the one I think you mean), and many of the rooms on the mud half are required...

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Chaco
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...yah, none of them are supposed to be required.

EDIT:

Alright, the stairs are fixed and Level IX *should* work as intended.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-29-2006 12:38 AM]

Kevin_P86
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Level 10, 1N1E is marked as required, but cannot be reached until the blue door drops... But I have beaten the part of level 10 that is accessible from where you start. A few of them were a little tricky, but nothing too impossible.

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bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
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Chaco wrote:
...actually, in all of the restrictional challenges, there's a force arrow letting you back through. Or something. Which rooms do you mean?

Earlier, I wrote,

L7, 3E. You can't return through this room. I thought this had been rectified in an earlier version?

This also means that if you go north, you can't return and reach the room to the east of 3E, and vice versa. It could be remedied by extending the 1 square wall above the west yellow door, and placing the mimic just above the force arrow.

Okay, you guys were right on all the rest of the counts. Fixed all things mentioned, except for VII 1N1E - I can't figure out which trapdoors aren't needed, so the average player at this point won't either.

Right click the trapdoors for the co-ordinates I posted earlier. Removing those two makes the room a teeny bit harder. On a related note, I once asked elsewhere how you got those co-ordinates in the editor, and never got a reply.

Also, I replaced VI 4N1E (Ladders trapdoor puzzle) with a more fair one that doesn't require knowledge of level X trapdoor logic, and looks more like a ladder.

? I thought the original one was a bit too easy for level 6.

Chaco
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...which is what I did in one of the earlier fixes - that room works now.

I figured since I was trying to "teach" trapdoor puzzles to people on 10, that I may as well have puzzles without said elements in 6. Besides, the previous puzzle looked nothing like a ladder at all.

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bandit1200
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Level 8

1S3E. The speech in there is redundant as the player has already used a decoy before he gets there.

2N2E. Is this meant to be so easy? You only need two of the decoys.
edit: somehow I managed to miss Kevin's posts on this one.

I like the new room at 1N4E, and although it's not particularly difficult, I've always liked 2E as well.

What's the idea of the secret room being the same as the one beside it? It even plays the same.

Level 10, 2N5W has got me stumped totally. I'm usually ok with trapdoor puzzles but I'm failing here. Tips? Even if only where to start.

(Numerous edits coz my head's a shed today)

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[Last edited by bandit1200 at 07-30-2006 03:49 PM]