Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

I handed everything off to Eytanz, because despite having over 40 clues, I could barely get anywhere, but I really do want to know what some of the /fake/ clues thus far have been.

techant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 854
Registered: 06-08-2004
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:The Rules:
...Note that each clue is distributed to four other players besides yourself, so there is redundancy.-Erik

I get it that four other different players were given my same clues but was any of them given 2 or more of my clues? Does this mean that someone can have more then one duplication or that each person only has one duplication of someone elses clues? This seem important in discovery of the truth.

ErikH2000 wrote:..When you have all of the information, you can submit it to contests@caravelgames.com. You should say:
- Names of all the buildings.
- Names of all the tunnels.
- Names of all the barriers.
- Which manager, secretary, and archivist is in each building-Erik

I am confused as to why we need to list all the buildings, tunnels and barriers as they were listed on the start page. I understand listing there location or something or which is which but not just their name. What am I missing here?

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Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Erik meant location. Or, rather, on the map he provided, name each barrier, tunnel, and building, and each building's inhabitants.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

techant wrote:
I get it that four other different players were given my same clues but was any of them given 2 or more of my clues? Does this mean that someone can have more then one duplication or that each person only has one duplication of someone elses clues? This seem important in discovery of the truth.

I've had several people tell me that they matched two of my clues. I've also found at least two pairs of people who matched two of each other's clues. I have a hard time believing they're all lying.

Also, if the clues were distributed more or less randomly, then it's a virtual certainty that some people will duplicate two or even more of your clues. I strongly suspect that trying to ensure no two players had more than one clue in common while still distributing the clues somewhat randomly is more work than Erik would have been willing to put in.

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
If someone else will volunteer to "grade" submitted answers after the first 3 for correctness, then we can do this. I'm worried about spending too much time on the contest, and that's why I had the contest ending after the first three correct answers were submitted.

Yeah, that's a good point. If by some miracle I manage to be one of the first three to solve it, I'd be happy to grade further submissions. Otherwise, maybe another kind soul or souls would volunteer.

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 282
Registered: 06-05-2004
IP: Logged

Regarding the contest backstory, is it official Eight conon? If so, is there a group of Abovegrounders that know more about the empire than the Smitemaster's guild?

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[Last edited by Krishh at 11-09-2005 02:21 PM : typos]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Yes:



Also, goddamn this is a seriously complicated puzzle.

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ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Krishh wrote:
Regarding the contest backstory, is it official Eight conon?

No, not quite.

The story is consistent with everything written so far in the canon and other stories. But some parts of it, I don't want to be held to later on. Like for example, there shouldn't be a need to have an archivist and secretary in each building.

-Erik

____________________________
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ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

techant wrote:
I get it that four other different players were given my same clues but was any of them given 2 or more of my clues?

For the sake of the game, I'm not going to say exactly how the rules were distributed, sorry.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Krishh submitted the first answer today and it was correct!

We're still going for 2nd and 3rd place.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Nillo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 01-04-2004
IP: Logged

I guess I can quit, then, since rank points are unimportant to me.

____________________________
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Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3310
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

I think I'll give up. Not because the first place is gone, but because it's too difficult to start separating the false clues from correct ones. I know I have clearly enough information to solve the puzzle, but I always end up in an impossible position in the end, because of some false clues.

Maybe after the correct clues are publicized...

Now I'm going to take another try at Watson to see if my puzzle solving skills increased during this contest. I have a feeling that there's a great difference.

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Doom wrote:
Now I'm going to take another try at Watson to see if my puzzle solving skills increased during this contest. I have a feeling that there's a great difference.

That's a great game. I'm definitely considering buying the full version. PathPix is also a recent favorite...it's not the same type of game at all (except for the logic aspect) but the two game makers have links to each other so I found out about it through WM.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Mouse
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 246
Registered: 04-21-2005
IP: Logged

I'm not participating (missed the cut off by about 5 mins), but I'd really like to solve this puzzle.
If you send me your clues,
-I won't pass them on to anyone else
-I will try to solve the puzzle for the fun of it

Cheers!

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

PathPix is also a recent favorite

Conceptis publishes 4 free link-a-pix puzzles every sunday. Its been a while since I've done them, but they're quite fun.

I've also enjoyed many of Everett Kaser's programs. I even got my mom hooked on them for a while. Although, I'm not really willing to pay the $20 to get unlimited random puzzles. I think playing through the 50+ or so demo puzzles he provides is usually enough for me to feel like I've got the hang of that particular puzzle variant.

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Progress Quest Progress

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

stigant wrote:
I've also enjoyed many of Everett Kaser's programs. I even got my mom hooked on them for a while. Although, I'm not really willing to pay the $20 to get unlimited random puzzles. I think playing through the 50+ or so demo puzzles he provides is usually enough for me to feel like I've got the hang of that particular puzzle variant.

I agree with you...on some of Kaser's games. Moriarty, for example, has only 8 different tables, and you get a taste of them all in the demo. So yes, buying the full version means you only get a bunch of new random puzzles.

With Watson's Map, though, there are only 15 maps in the demo. The full version supposedly has over 100 maps...each of which can be fully randomized. So there's a lot more variety there compared to the demo version, because a new map is a much different game than just different randomized elements in the map. I definitely had the same concerns as you did, but it does seem to me that WM is a pretty good deal. I'm not fully convinced yet, but considering the playtime I've gotten out of 3 configurations each on just the first 8 maps, I'm pretty sure I'll get it.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

....Krishh?

Wait, what? all this drama about Maurog and Robobob's lies, Eytanz's deal..and Krishh gets it? What?

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1377
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

All I can say is.. way to go Krishh!

Chalks
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 267
Registered: 04-17-2005
IP: Logged

oh man! I'm so clooooose too. yet I have to leave for two hours. I'm so nervous that two more ppl will get it! grrrr.

good job krishh!!!!!

zaubberer
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 251
Registered: 03-29-2005
IP: Logged

a great contest in my opinnion!
i have 43 clues at all and i think that they true. figured out the location of the most tunnels, the location of all barriers too.

but now i think that i havn't enough informations to solve the puzzle. i'm totaly scrambled!

i'll take a break.

Congratulations to Krishh!

zaubberer

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[Last edited by zaubberer at 11-09-2005 11:21 PM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Yeah, towards the end all the wheeling and dealing ended up not mattering for very much.

____________________________
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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3659
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Ah. That was over way too fast. We all know 2nd and 3rd place are unimportant anyway.

Oh well, now to wait another month for something interesting to happen.

____________________________
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Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I'll dance with my pants off if that'll help pass the time?

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leroy00
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 155
Registered: 09-30-2003
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
Analyzing the Map:

Some clues speak of caves being on opposite sides of one barrier. Note that this is not the same as saying that one cave is opposite to another. It is instead meant that moving perpendicular to the long sides of a barrier you will approach one cave in a first direction, and the other cave moving the opposite direction.


-Erik

As far as I can tell, this is not completely unambiguous. You can move perpendicular to a barrier while outside of its "range", so to speak. I think what this meant was:

Moving perpendicular to the long sides of a barrier while not leaving the area limited by their endpoints you will approach one cave in a first direction, and the other cave moving the opposite direction.

I assume that is what is meant, because otherwise the clues give practically no information. Is that correct? I am not trying to be picky here, I am just trying to interpret the clues correctly.

-leroy


____________________________
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-Jimi Hendrix, "The Wind Cries Mary"

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Yes, you must be within the endpoints of the barrier to have the two caves be "opposite". Think of the perpendicular line as going through the barrier.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 282
Registered: 06-05-2004
IP: Logged

Yay! After all the jumping for joy I did (literally, actually), I ended up not having time to post yestarday.

But, yes, I guess all the dealing and wheeling didn't end up being too important, since most of the clues were relativly wide-spread by the end of the first day. My most important source of imformation came completely out of the blue when I took up KevGs new offer.
After I got that, is was just a matter of selectioning the clues. (Robin helped me here. While trading with him we came to the conclusion that Maurog was a liar) Afterwards it was just a matter of solving the biggest and hardest Watsons map-style puzzle ever. I did end up restoring to a backup copy of the map 2 times (I made a backup every time I started following suspicious clues), at least once because I just messed up, so it took me about 4 hours, give or take some 20 minutes.

Overall, it was great fun, but I have to agree with Mattc that the social and political experiment part of it didn't come out quite as Erik had planned.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I think that the wheeling and dealing will go better if less people got the same clues but the clues cover similar ground. It'd ramp up the lying, stretching out the competition further, and mitigate the infodump strategy that some people took.
You couldn't do a unique clue for each person because then lying would be risk-free. It'd be very hard to get caught, and few people would be able to get a complete solution.

____________________________
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stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Here are some thoughts that I had about this game:

To begin with, there were two parts to the game: Gather and Scrub (get rid of lies) the information, Solve the puzzle. The two parts seemed largely seperate. I wouldn't know for sure of course, having only gathered a lot of information. But I refuse to sit down and try to solve the puzzle until I'm close to 100% sure that all my clues are true.

My wish is that the two parts could be more integrated. You should have to start by gathering some information, but it should also be practical to scrub information by logical reasoning (reach a contradiction) rather than by just verifying the information from several sources. Of course, it was POSSIBLE to do this in this game, but impractical until you have nearly all the information anyway.

My suggestion is this: Make the overall puzzle smaller. Less possibilities in each category - maybe 5 or 6 of each (as side note, I think the large number of possibilities was a bit of a barrier to entry - it didn't make the puzzle more interesting to me, it just made it more confusing/tedious). However, keep the number of distinct clues the same (there were about 60, right?). In otherwords, add some clues that are redundant. You may be able to solve the puzzle with only half the clues. However, you'd be able to weed out some fallacies with some logical deduction without having to have all the other clues.

Another thought I had was to make the scoring of the game a bit less all-or-nothing. A scoring system for how well you lie and how much information you add to the public knowlege. I'm not sure how to work this exactly, but you would score points for coming to novel conclusions that aren't directly mentioned by clues. A liar would score points for the length of time that a lie remained in the public domain, but would lose a set amount of points for being revealed. Other players would score points for revealing liars through logical reasoning. Solving the puzzle would bring a large bonus, but it would be possible to "Win" by scoring more points via other means. The game would become a more cooperative puzzle with people competing to be the MVP. I think it would also be necessary to reveal information gradually rather than passing out all the clues at the beginning. Perhaps players could start with 1-2 clues each, and get a new clue every day or so.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

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[Last edited by stigant at 11-10-2005 02:08 PM]

schep
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 865
Registered: 03-01-2005
IP: Logged

stigant wrote:
You should have to start by gathering some information, but it should also be practical to scrub information by logical reasoning (reach a contradiction) rather than by just verifying the information from several sources. Of course, it was POSSIBLE to do this in this game, but impractical until you have nearly all the information anyway.

Hmm, it's hard to judge how easy or difficult this actually was. I found a contradiction among a mere four statements early on, but that's just one case, and it will depend on what sort of information you have.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Well, the way the information was spread out pretty much nullified the usefulness of my deal - I got ten people who sent me information, and almost all of them sent me the exact same information. Interestingly, at least one false item is widely spread, since there's a contradiction in my information somewhere... I'm still trying to sort it out, but while tuesday I had a lot of free time I no longer do for the rest of the week - so I don't think my deal will make any difference, probably #2 and #3 will happen before I solve the puzzle and will be obliged to send out the information I have.

As a side note, since making my proposal, I didn't distribute any information except to people who sent me information as part of the deal, and even them I only told what I knew from my original five clues. So, my deal had really no effect - if I had been dishonest about it, I could have affected other people's prospects, maybe.

____________________________
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