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Yellow_Mage
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Man, so close!

Doh! Nevermind... Next time, eh? :D

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10-26-2005 at 03:57 PM
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ErikH2000
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File: Smite to the Death - Cycle 11.hold (17.6 KB)
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No deaths? I want some blood!

Attached is the cycle 10-11 hold.

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 01:25 AM
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Mattcrampy
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You could always cheat for your ol' buddy Matt, right?

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10-28-2005 at 01:33 AM
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ErikH2000
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Okay, Mattcrampy can walk through any obstacle... and also has invulnerability... and also he gets a ray gun. It will only last for 4 cycles, though.

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 01:36 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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Before Edit:
Y ya gotta use hax?

That's all good but that not gonna help if he doesn't know where his opponents are. :P

Ok, that was before i realised that StuartK has his sword pointing towards your posterior... :(

Ok, use hax.

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[Last edited by Yellow_Mage at 10-28-2005 01:54 AM]
10-28-2005 at 01:44 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Stuart, if you so much as drop a spoon, I will seriously flip out and kill the whole town.

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10-28-2005 at 04:12 AM
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StuartK
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Stuart, if you so much as drop a spoon, I will seriously flip out and kill the whole town.
:borg
10-28-2005 at 04:40 AM
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StuartK
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Seriously, my perspective on this movement order system isn't great either. I have a guaranteed killzone around my sword on the first turn of each set of moves, and some kind of rebalancing is seriously in order.

Also, my starting right in the corner has in retrospect been something of an advantage. As I run towards the centre, attrition has been doing it's thing, leaving just one or two opponents to 'deal' with at a time - generally from behind, although it seems a sneaky sneak has somehow snuck his way behind me this time. Perhaps you'll get your revenge yet, Matt ;)
10-28-2005 at 04:49 AM
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Alneyan
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Actually, I think the sequence system works fine: everybody could have had a very good sequence, but doing that severely makes your chances of winning a lot lower. Most low number players haven't been doing that well, and only the two of us have survived thus far.

Of course, there is also that "gang up" factor. Reckon we can take him down if we bring all our swords together? Don't worry, I won't kill you right afterwards. No, really!
10-28-2005 at 12:23 PM
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Yellow_Mage
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Kevin is at the bottom of the sequence and he's winning, so the the ordering handicap works very well. It helps that he knows what he's doing, damn him.

*shakes fist*

Next time Gadget, next time...

*Flies away in a rocket car*

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10-28-2005 at 05:11 PM
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ErikH2000
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Yellow_Mage wrote:
Kevin is at the bottom of the sequence and he's winning, so the the ordering handicap works very well.
Maybe too well, since people that bid more than 0 are mostly on the bottom half of the standings. You've done well at overcoming your handicap, but for most people it looks like bidding was a mistake.

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 05:25 PM
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Oneiromancer
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Maybe too well, since people that bid more than 0 are mostly on the bottom half of the standings. You've done well at overcoming your handicap, but for most people it looks like bidding was a mistake.
Well, that's really hard to say. I overcame my bid, and am still in the top 20, but I would have had 4 points if I didn't bid 2. However, if I hadn't bid 2, I wouldn't be located where I was in the arena. So who knows how many kills I would have gotten? And then even if no one else had bid differently, everyone between my current number of 11 and wherever I would have ended up would have been moved up one, so their experiences would have been different.

I do think there wasn't enough of a benefit to bidding to do it again in the future, though.

Game on,

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10-28-2005 at 05:36 PM
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trick
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The kill I got (wallu), I only got because I was before him in the movement sequence. If I hadn't bid my one kill, I would have been after him in the movement sequence, and then he'd gotten away. From that point things might have gone differently, but I think my score would have been zero either way :)

- Gerry
10-28-2005 at 05:52 PM
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ErikH2000
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I like the idea of bidding fixing all the balancing issues for me, but in practice, maybe it's not the best way. After this game, I think most people would bid zero or one, which means the sequencing would be largely determined by how fast you said "I'm in!" which might as well be random.

Before I decided to use bidding, we talked about different turn sequences that would equalize people's chances, but I didn't like how it added more complexity to the analysis--both for the player, who has to think about his changing turn sequence relative to other players, and me, who has to update the boards.

I'm thinking now that a better way to do this would be to have initial positions that offer a sliding scale of advantage with a conversely advantageous sequence# associated with them. So if you get the #1 spot, maybe you begin with someone's sword 2 squares from your back. This would take a lot of experimentation to balance the beginning positions, and probably work best with smaller boards with < 20 people.

Risk does something like this where different starting locations offer short-term or long-term advantages, i.e. begin in the tiny South American continent and you can claim it quickly for a small advantage or begin in Asia and claim it after several turns for a much larger advantage.

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 05:59 PM
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ErikH2000
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Hmm. Another way to make things work better would be to make kills worth 10 points. You would bid in points instead of kills. So then bidding in increments less than the value of a kill would be useful and more people would do it.

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 06:04 PM
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StuartK
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With an automated system (presumably the eventual aim) something more sophisticated would I think be acceptable, with onscreen feedback of movement order. What of my suggestion for each kill to move the player to the bottom of the list? Players who haven't killed yet (ostensibly less skilled, or less lucky) move to the top giving them an advantage, and players who have killed (ostensibly more skilled, or more lucky) move to the bottom. Add in respawning, and a turn limit (20 rounds in total?) and you've got a proper deathmatch.

I see no reason not to 'borrow' other ideas from FPSs like capture the flag etc.

I also think there's some scope for obstacles/features unique to multiplayer - e.g. give each player a few 'points' to build up the environment how they choose near their start location e.g. buy a bomb, goblin, mimic etc. Potions of confusion, magnetism or temporary mind control?

On the same basis I'd also be interested in controlling two swordsmen at a time, with a consequent increase in tactical options, and an inbuilt challenge to get them both together before you can utilise them in conjunction. If you've got two swordsmen, one of them could be placed near the start in movement order, and the other would be a mirror, near the end. Or two placed near the middle, balancing them out.

Many, many possibilities. I think it should be allowed for multiplayer to develop distinctly from single player. We shouldn't be too precious about sticking exactly to the single player mechanics, if something better can be found, through lots of experimentation and game balancing...
10-28-2005 at 10:11 PM
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StuartK
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With such a silly bid of 4 kills, at no point have I been trying to win the overall contest. I hope to have provided a little experimental data though (trying to avoid hubris here...) IMO, it takes away from the fun being at the top of the movement order list. There's one kill I actually feel a little proud of because it required some thought, and the rest did involve some guilt, because (whether true or not) in my mind I'm taking away from someone elses fun, with my unfair advantage gained by such silly bidding - whether or not that advantage still gives me a handicap in the overall contest.

I wonder how well md5i would have done (2nd in movement order and my first kill) if players had began in more randomised start positions?

Bidding is a convenient solution whilst we persist with a manual system, but as soon as someone *cough* comes up with something more automated, I think more sophisticated options with lesser disadvantages would be well considered, plus some system that allows everyone a better crack at the game than last man standing, which would in part address the whole guilt thing for me.

If bidding is used, next contest I'm bidding a negative number of kills ;)
10-28-2005 at 10:31 PM
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ErikH2000
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StuartK wrote:
With an automated system (presumably the eventual aim) something more sophisticated would I think be acceptable, with onscreen feedback of movement order. What of my suggestion for each kill to move the player to the bottom of the list?
That seems elegant. It would have made quite a bit more work for me at the beginning when we had 57 players, but for smaller games or an automated system, I could see it.
I also think there's some scope for obstacles/features unique to multiplayer
...
On the same basis I'd also be interested in controlling two swordsmen at a time,
Cool ideas.
Many, many possibilities. I think it should be allowed for multiplayer to develop distinctly from single player. We shouldn't be too precious about sticking exactly to the single player mechanics, if something better can be found, through lots of experimentation and game balancing...
Yes, I agree. And we might have to add a raygun just to prove something. :)

-Erik

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10-28-2005 at 10:48 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (0)  
One question: when this is all done, do you think you could publish all the cycles in one scripted hold? You could do the Squeezening with an orb inside Beethro's area that toggles doors at the edge of the arena.

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10-29-2005 at 02:15 AM
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ErikH2000
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I'm not going to do it, but Doom started a hold like that and maybe he'll continue to be ambitious. Be really nice to Doom!

-Erik

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10-29-2005 at 02:20 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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I'm confused about the perimeter/squeezening thing, mainly because,

Do not be 1 square inside the perimeter after your 5th command. You will fall into a pit and be removed from the game if you do that.

on a normal tile? I thought the sand tiles would dissapear at the very start the next cycle, but that implies that the sand tiles show what has already disappeared from the cycle before. This is probably not a question to be asking while sleep deprived (as my eyes have deceived me many a time), but I'll admit it's been bugging me for a while, and I just want to be sure.

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10-29-2005 at 02:32 AM
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ErikH2000
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Ugh. You should be confused. I actually changed the rule slightly without telling anybody. Why didn't I tell? Oh, I don't know... Was it shame? Or just weariness of explaining the nonstop stream of arbitrary rules I seem to be generating? Hard to say.

It occured to me after doing a few updates that it would be much more intuitive to just let people step on the sand tiles during a cycle and as long as they didn't end their 5th command on a sand tile, they wouldn't get squeezened. That's really the obvious way to do it. In fact, somebody would have already gotten squeezened with the old rules, but since my rules were weirdly counter-intuitive, I just didn't have the heart to enforce them. It seemed like a really crummy way to remove somebody from the game.

Just don't come to rest on the sand tiles on your 5th command and you won't get squeezened. Sorry for the bad rulemaking and selective enforcement.

-Erik

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10-31-2005 at 12:59 AM
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ErikH2000
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File: Smite to the Death - Cycle 12.hold (17.9 KB)
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Cycle 11 to 12 hold.

-Erik

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10-31-2005 at 02:06 AM
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StuartK
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icon Ooh ghosties. Where'd he go? (0)  
Arbitrary rules you say? ;)

So, the question is, were we all moved before Erik knew our move sequences, and the resulting Reservoir Dogs style face-off down to pure luck, or was it actually planned this way by our local deity?

What a dilemna. Hilarious :lol


Of course, this is assuming it was all intentional...?

[Last edited by StuartK at 10-31-2005 02:36 AM]
10-31-2005 at 02:32 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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It think it's better to ask Erik than ask everyone else other than Erik. You don't want me to answer that question...

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It occured to me after doing a few updates that it would be much more intuitive to just let people step on the sand tiles during a cycle and as long as they didn't end their 5th command on a sand tile, they wouldn't get squeezened. That's really the obvious way to do it. In fact, somebody would have already gotten squeezened with the old rules, but since my rules were weirdly counter-intuitive, I just didn't have the heart to enforce them. It seemed like a really crummy way to remove somebody from the game.

I was thinking that, but I would think it was would impossible to be squeezened beause if anyone wasn't standing on a sand tile, they couldn't move back on it (which was the real reason of me asking,) but since you phrased like that, I'm less confused. I'm always confused naturally. Don't mind me.

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10-31-2005 at 03:08 AM
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StuartK
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Yellow_Mage wrote:
It think it's better to ask Erik than ask everyone else other than Erik. You don't want me to answer that question...
The first question was rhetorical, since it was based on the assumption the arbitrary moves were intentional. I was basically thinking out loud, and attempting to demonstrate I was taking the changes in good humour. I'm actually entirely in favour of them, because I've now got something very interesting to think about. And of course Matt and Kevin do too :)

The second question was directed at Erik, but it's entirely up to him whether he answers or not. The subtext being are we finished with the translocations?

I hope that's clearer. I was attempting to be subtle, but I have a tendency to overthink, so perhaps the message got lost or mangled from brain to keyboard.
10-31-2005 at 04:25 AM
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ErikH2000
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StuartK wrote:
So, the question is, were we all moved before Erik knew our move sequences, and the resulting Reservoir Dogs style face-off down to pure luck, or was it actually planned this way by our local deity?
You're going to have to explain this question in a really obvious way to me, because I don't get it. :( Are you talking about already-submitted commands giving different results than expected due to the rule change? Hmm. Just confused over here.

-Erik

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10-31-2005 at 04:32 AM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Ooh ghosties. Where'd he go? (0)  
Were the changes in everyones position between the end of the last turn and the start of this intentional or unintentional? I was assuming, after the banter between yourself and Matt it was intentional, but now I'm beginning to wonder. Either way & FWIW, I'm fine with however you decide to let the rest of the game play out.

[Last edited by StuartK at 10-31-2005 05:16 AM]
10-31-2005 at 05:16 AM
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ErikH2000
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StuartK wrote:
Were the changes in everyones position between the end of the last turn and the start of this intentional or unintentional?
What position changes? It sounds like I must have missed something. Please elaborate.

-Erik

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10-31-2005 at 05:27 AM
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StuartK
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ErikH2000 wrote:
What position changes? It sounds like I must have missed something. Please elaborate.
At the end of the last turn

No. Name Coords
#56 Kevin 12,20
#01 StuartK 15,19
#23 Matt 17,20
#15 Yellow Mage 24,16
#04 Alneyan 24,18

At the start of this turn

#56 Kevin 13,21
#01 StuartK 15,18
#23 Matt 16,21
#15 Yellow Mage 23,16
#04 Alneyan 25,17
10-31-2005 at 05:49 AM
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