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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : The Unfortunate Architect - Poll (A multiple question poll)
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RankEntryAverageStandard Deviation
1What score would you give Entry 13?7.76923076923081.4756404687116
2What score would you give Entry 7?7.53846153846151.7808979850447
3What score would you give Entry 1? (Be sure to read the rules below!)7.30769230769231.6817854699289
4What score would you give Entry 11?7.23076923076921.6711969986462
5What score would you give Entry 3?6.84615384615381.6569737868106
6What score would you give Entry 12?6.69230769230771.8138194034695
7What score would you give Entry 9?6.53846153846152.0981817995363
8What score would you give Entry 4?6.07692307692311.6390212117433
9What score would you give Entry 10?62.1838568563967
10What score would you give Entry 5?5.46153846153852.2054263364356
11What score would you give Entry 2?4.92307692307692.6446328365648
12What score would you give Entry 14?4.69230769230771.635407048113
13What score would you give Entry 8?4.38461538461541.8203322409537
14What score would you give Entry 6?3.46153846153851.2779421327566
What score would you give Entry 1? (Be sure to read the rules below!)
12345678910
Average Vote 7.3076923076923
Standard Deviation 1.6817854699289

What score would you give Entry 2?
12345678910
Average Vote 4.9230769230769
Standard Deviation 2.6446328365648

What score would you give Entry 3?
12345678910
Average Vote 6.8461538461538
Standard Deviation 1.6569737868106

What score would you give Entry 4?
12345678910
Average Vote 6.0769230769231
Standard Deviation 1.6390212117433

What score would you give Entry 5?
12345678910
Average Vote 5.4615384615385
Standard Deviation 2.2054263364356

What score would you give Entry 6?
12345678910
Average Vote 3.4615384615385
Standard Deviation 1.2779421327566

What score would you give Entry 7?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.5384615384615
Standard Deviation 1.7808979850447

What score would you give Entry 8?
12345678910
Average Vote 4.3846153846154
Standard Deviation 1.8203322409537

What score would you give Entry 9?
12345678910
Average Vote 6.5384615384615
Standard Deviation 2.0981817995363

What score would you give Entry 10?
12345678910
Average Vote 6
Standard Deviation 2.1838568563967

What score would you give Entry 11?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.2307692307692
Standard Deviation 1.6711969986462

What score would you give Entry 12?
12345678910
Average Vote 6.6923076923077
Standard Deviation 1.8138194034695

What score would you give Entry 13?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.7692307692308
Standard Deviation 1.4756404687116

What score would you give Entry 14?
12345678910
Average Vote 4.6923076923077
Standard Deviation 1.635407048113
Total Votes 26 100%
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agaricus5
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That's pretty unfair.

I've found it now, but it's completely invisible under the queen.

I think a scroll which stated this should have been put in the room.



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12-19-2004 at 07:57 PM
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eytanz
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You are genuinely missing something. Try going into those chambers - see what happens.



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12-19-2004 at 08:02 PM
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12-19-2004 at 09:41 PM
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agaricus5
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Kunzite wrote:
The *only* thing I can think of to do is this:

Click here to view the secret text


Which would be ridiculously time consuming and frustrating, so if that is the only solution let me know and I'll skip the room. :nugget

That particular solution would be impossible, since serpents tend to move towards you, not away.

However (progressive hints)...

Click here to view the secret text


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12-20-2004 at 01:37 AM
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Rabscuttle
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agaricus5 wrote:
That's pretty unfair.

I've found it now, but it's completely invisible under the queen.

I think a scroll which stated this should have been put in the room.


It's not too unfair in the context of the competition. I counted the mimic potions in the other rooms and came up one short.
12-20-2004 at 02:20 AM
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agaricus5
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Rabscuttle wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
That's pretty unfair.

I've found it now, but it's completely invisible under the queen.

I think a scroll which stated this should have been put in the room.

It's not too unfair in the context of the competition. I counted the mimic potions in the other rooms and came up one short.
Well, it won't really affect my vote for the hold, but from a gameplay perspective, it isn't very fun to have to discover it by having to infer like that. Placing monsters onto potions is something I generally don't do when hold building (it's a bit like hiding walls and other things with tar), so I guess I wasn't expecting that anyone else would, either.

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12-20-2004 at 02:30 AM
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eytanz
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I inferred it otherwise -

1 - I knew the room must be solvable to be included in the contest (as a demo had to be supplied)
2 - I knew that a mimic potion was necessary to solve the room.
3 - I knew that there wasn't one outside those two chambers.
4 - I also knew that it was impossible to hide something in the other chamber as the monster in it (was it a wraithwing? I don't remember) moved.
5 - Hence, I knew that there was one hidden under the queen.

Note that this reasoning works well for the contest - but if this hold were submitted outside the contest, I wouldn't be assured of 1, so my whole reasoning would collapse.

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12-20-2004 at 03:55 AM
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gamer_extreme_101
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Within the next 2 minutes, the last two fixes will be posted. Both Entry 2 & 3 had bugs that needed to be fixed, so this updated version must be used now. Mucho gracious.

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12-20-2004 at 05:50 PM
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A small error occured and I uploaded an old version of Entry 3. The new one will be availible in a minute.

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12-20-2004 at 07:36 PM
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RubellaGolda
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I'm sorry, but I cannot find the link to the zip file containing all entries ("I'll have...The Lot") anywhere, not in gamer's first, nor in his second post.

Anyone care to point me to it?
12-20-2004 at 07:57 PM
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Tim
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RubellaGolda wrote:
I'm sorry, but I cannot find the link to the zip file containing all entries ("I'll have...The Lot") anywhere, not in gamer's first, nor in his second post.

Anyone care to point me to it?
The zip file has been removed. You will have to download them one by one...

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12-20-2004 at 08:05 PM
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Jacob
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What's changed in the entry 2 update? I'd already completed it; does the change warrant me replaying it? Enjoying the entries so far, but some rooms are really tough, do we need to have completed them all before voting?

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12-20-2004 at 10:34 PM
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gamer_extreme_101
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Jacob said:
What's changed in the entry 2 update? I'd already completed it; does the change warrant me replaying it? Enjoying the entries so far, but some rooms are really tough, do we need to have completed them all before voting?
From what the authour told me, they were minor changes. So, unless he tells me by PM or email that they could affect the voting, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Edited by gamer_extreme_101 at Local Time:12-21-2004 at 01:29 AM]

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12-20-2004 at 11:41 PM
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Major, critical update to Entry #5. Due to lack of time on my hand, the story was cut out on this hold. The story plays a large, improtant role in the hold, so please make sure you include the Beginning and Final text into the mark. This was my error, not hers.

I also ask that people stop voting for now, as I'm sure that a couple of other holds are missing stories as well. I will double-check each hold, but it would be greatly appreciated if you wither emailed or PM'd me to inform me about it. Thanks.

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12-21-2004 at 08:58 PM
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agaricus5
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Major, critical update to Entry #5. Due to lack of time on my hand, the story was cut out on this hold. The story plays a large, improtant role in the hold, so please make sure you include the Beginning and Final text into the mark. This was my error, not hers.
You may also want to check stair associations in the holds. I imported them into JtRH, and quite a few of them have had their stairs reset for some reason, entry 5 being one of those afflicted.

I also ask that people stop voting for now, as I'm sure that a couple of other holds are missing stories as well. I will double-check each hold, but it would be greatly appreciated if you wither emailed or PM'd me to inform me about it. Thanks.
What about votes already cast? Do they still count?

Edit: Also, exactly what are the criteria to vote on?

I'm not paying much attention to the scrolls in the holds at present (I treat them as interesting asides, but not really relevant to the contest). In addition, are we meant to vote on only the 8 rooms that do not contain the stairs, or are we supposed to include those, and penalise holds that have ones which don't contain any puzzles, or puzzles which appear to be "filler" puzzles to allow the hold to meet requirements?

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:12-21-2004 at 09:32 PM]

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12-21-2004 at 09:14 PM
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ErikH2000
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Ah, these kinds of problems almost always come up in contests. Patrick, if you want, we can clear the votes for the poll (leaving the poll intact). And then people would need to recast their votes, perhaps differently than before. If you'd like to do that, just let me know.

-Erik

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12-21-2004 at 09:22 PM
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Jacob
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Entry #3 1N1E: For the final section with the mimic does one need to
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because I'm struggling to do so. Any pointers?
Is a similar solution needed for entry #4 1N?
Thanks.

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12-22-2004 at 04:59 PM
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All of the entries will now be re-posted. The changes include:

-All stairs have been reset. About 95% of them had the evil stair bug in them.
-All of the stories are included again (5 & 8 being the notable ones I can remember, althought there was at least one more). I would ask that you keep the storyline in mind when you vote, as the storyline can really affect how good/bad the hold is.
-A couple of changes were made to 2 entries, although I can't remember which.

With that, I now ask you to download the new entries which should be up in the next 15 minutes. I'm also going to ask Erik to reset the poll so that the level will be even for all holds. Please play the holds again or, at the very least, PM me if you have already played the hold and want to read the beginning and ending text. Thank you very much.

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12-22-2004 at 05:25 PM
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ErikH2000
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Please, nobody vote until I make another post saying I'm done with the reset.

-Erik

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12-22-2004 at 08:40 PM
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ErikH2000
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Okay, the poll is now ready for revoting.

-Erik

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12-22-2004 at 08:53 PM
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Tim
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agaricus5 wrote:
Also, exactly what are the criteria to vote on?
In case you haven't read the first post in this thread, I will quote some text from gamer:
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
2.Holds should be judged based on use of elements (I.E - All of the monsters look well thought out and not just place to meet requirements), design, and on fun and enjoyment factor. The rank goes from "Perfect" (10) to "Good" (5) to "Neutral Opinion" (2) to "Negative Opinion" (1-0).
Although I wouldn't give any of the holds a zero, since you can't do that ;)
And I think they are all very good, as I haven't finished any of the holds yet :unsure

Oh, and this one:
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
6.Please don't comment on the holds until after the poll is finished.
Please put any comments on any hold in secret tags, if you really can't resist to comment on any holds.
I've just played the room mentioned in the above posts, and I think you've spoiled an interesting puzzle...
Please do not influence other judges.
agaricus5 wrote:
In addition, are we meant to vote on only the 8 rooms that do not contain the stairs, or are we supposed to include those, and penalise holds that have ones which don't contain any puzzles, or puzzles which appear to be "filler" puzzles to allow the hold to meet requirements?
The rules about the number of rooms were changed during the contest.
I think a judge should not penalise a hold when
1) it has only 8 puzzle rooms instead of nine,
2) it has "filler" puzzles (unless it made you feel less fun)

Personally, I think you should judge it as any other hold you would find in the Holds section. (where rowrow's first hold actually has better marks than my first hold ;))

-- Tim

[Edited by Tim at Local Time:12-23-2004 at 12:27 AM]

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12-22-2004 at 11:56 PM
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I agree and disagree with Tim. All hints and solutions, feel free to post here, but please use secret tags.

If you have to comment on the holds themselves but can't wait two weeks, use the [untiltime] tags rather than secret tags. The polls close on the 8th of January, so have the comments set to show on the 9th. Easy as pie, and we all know how good pie is.

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12-23-2004 at 12:43 AM
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techant
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Thanks for the hard work both of you (gamer_extreme_101 and ErikH2000). I downloaded all the entries again and will review each one again.

In response to agaricus5
agaricus5 wrote:
Also, exactly what are the criteria to vote on?

I set up a small spread sheet (handwritten) where I have split my evaluations in to four sections, and then I plan to total up my scores to get my final ratings. The four sections are based on those we were instructed to evaluate-
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
2.Holds should be judged based on use of elements (I.E - All of the monsters look well thought out and not just place to meet requirements), design, and on fun and enjoyment factor. The rank goes from "Perfect" (10) to "Good" (5) to "Neutral Opinion" (2) to "Negative Opinion" (1-0).
As well as those on the original board [url=http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4412 http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4412

My four sections are as follows:
1. Access -Number of rooms that meet the access rule.
each room must be accessible from the entrance without having to clear out any rooms before it. This will also help so that, when you play each hold you won't be stuck on that hold forever because you can't pass a room that leads to the rest of them.
I am maybe more demanding then the rule in that I count the room as accessible only if it is very easy to move around to the room. That is, I only have to kill a very few monsters or none at all. I personally get very frustrated if I have to kill off half a room just to get to another room.

2. Use of monsters - Total number of rooms with a good use of monsters.
(I.E - All of the monsters look well thought out and not just place to meet requirements),
The default is one for the entrance/exit which I do not count. (But if that room is really good I may give it a bonus point under #4 fun rooms below)

3a. Design 1 - Total number of rooms that are consistent with the theme. I view the theme as the one presented in the contest and expanded on by each player.

3b. Design 2 - A 1 to 10 score on the overall design and look. This one is very subjective.

4. Fun Rooms - Total number of just plain fun rooms. this means good puzzles. I guess this is very subjective as well but I think an average player should enjoy the hold, with an occasional really challenging room. If the whole thing is so hard that only an expert would enjoy it then I am not as likely to score it as fun. As I said this is subjective you will have your own view of fun. :D

I will be adding these up and then I will rate them according to the scale.
"Perfect" (10) to "Good" (5) to "Neutral Opinion" (2) to "Negative Opinion" (1-0).


I may add more categories as I do more holds if I find some good feature that doesn't fit a category that I have already. That is what happened when I first started evaluating access. I went into each hold and just tried to get into each room. As I did that I realized that I wanted to give a score for overall design. That was when I added 3b to my spread sheet.

This may sound too complicated but I wanted to limit or cut down my subjective scoring so I could try and be really fair. I tend to forget or confuse different holds when I am done with them so I was also trying avoid that happening.

Hope this helps you agaricus5

- Techant

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12-23-2004 at 02:29 AM
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Restricted Resources (#3) 1W

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12-23-2004 at 08:20 AM
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agaricus5
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techant wrote:
I set up a small spread sheet (handwritten) where I have split my evaluations in to four sections, and then I plan to total up my scores to get my final ratings. The four sections are based on those we were instructed to evaluate-
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
2.Holds should be judged based on use of elements (I.E - All of the monsters look well thought out and not just place to meet requirements), design, and on fun and enjoyment factor. The rank goes from "Perfect" (10) to "Good" (5) to "Neutral Opinion" (2) to "Negative Opinion" (1-0).
As well as those on the original board [url=http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4412 http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4412

That's interesting. I used exactly the same method, although the way I categorised things was slightly different.

My four sections are as follows:
1. Access -Number of rooms that meet the access rule.
each room must be accessible from the entrance without having to clear out any rooms before it. This will also help so that, when you play each hold you won't be stuck on that hold forever because you can't pass a room that leads to the rest of them.
Well, I didn't personally vote on this rule because practically every room is accessible from the start, and really, if you complete all the rooms in order, there should be no real problem with half-clearing a room. That's just my personal opinion, though.

2. Use of monsters - Total number of rooms with a good use of monsters.
(I.E - All of the monsters look well thought out and not just place to meet requirements),
The default is one for the entrance/exit which I do not count. (But if that room is really good I may give it a bonus point under #4 fun rooms below)
I used slightly different criteria for that voting. When I looked for "good usage" of monsters, I looked at the sorts of puzzles that were being presented, and gave higher ratings to more unique, varied and unusual rooms, since those obviously had been thought out well and designed to be different. I still gave good votes for well-designed rooms, but even more so if those rooms were unusual.

3a. Design 1 - Total number of rooms that are consistent with the theme. I view the theme as the one presented in the contest and expanded on by each player.
I didn't rate on theme, because the limitation was in a sense the theme, so all holds technically had it. One or two were based around a central, secondary theme, which I took into consideration, but most of this section I placed under 2.

3b. Design 2 - A 1 to 10 score on the overall design and look. This one is very subjective.
This was my "Aesthetics" vote. I rated this criterion on how good it looked, both on screen, and on the minimap, since it is, of course, a hold, so it should also look good too, as well as play well.

4. Fun Rooms - Total number of just plain fun rooms. this means good puzzles. I guess this is very subjective as well but I think an average player should enjoy the hold, with an occasional really challenging room. If the whole thing is so hard that only an expert would enjoy it then I am not as likely to score it as fun. As I said this is subjective you will have your own view of fun. :D
I rated this slightly differently to you. Although basically the same for most cases, for one or two holds with the sort of puzzles I didn't like, but which were obviously well-made, and would be fun to certain people, I didn't penalise the hold as badly as I would have if I had been purely subjective.

I will be adding these up and then I will rate them according to the scale.
"Perfect" (10) to "Good" (5) to "Neutral Opinion" (2) to "Negative Opinion" (1-0).
I took an average of the scores and rounded to the nearest value. To make it a little more fair and focus on the more important aspects of the holds, I multiplied the Element Usage and Fun scores by 2, so Aesthetics wouldn't play such an important part in the hold, as it isn't as important to me.

The problem with my style of analysis at first was that it clustered all the hold scores in a small area around 5-6, since I rarely view something as "perfect", so 9s or 10s were highly unlikely to come up. Since I had to rate mine as 10, this wasn't really as fair as it should have been, so I am going to try a slightly different way of determining the scores, which takes into account my own hold being a 10 (under those rules previously, I would not have voted 10).

Thanks for the suggestions, although this is how I am voting anyway. I was only asking to get one or two things clear, like whether to vote on the entrance rooms and the stories or not, since these were not mentioned in the initial posts, but they were mentioned as important in the reset, or were not explicitly clarified.

If storylines are to be regarded as important, then I'm still not going to pay as much attention to them, since it will be unfair for those holds which do not have one (because we were not told having one is a requirement), but which are still worthy of a high score anyway.

It's nice to know that there are people who are analysing holds like this, though. I thought that I was taking this contest too seriously.

Thanks.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:12-23-2004 at 12:08 PM]

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:12-23-2004 at 03:42 PM]

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12-23-2004 at 12:08 PM
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techant
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Thanks for the interesting perspective, I may take a few of your ideas and use them myself. We must both have a little to much time on our hand or else we are just perfectionist :glasses

For me the later is more true than the former. :blush

Thanks again for letting me know your approach on scoring.

p.s. I was re-reading your critera and had another thought.

Maybe I am just picky or lazy but I don't like to kill off half a room and then leave it unfinished, so I consider having to do that just like not having access. Now that is not exactly what the rules said but the principle, as I understood it was to not frustrate the players that want to get to the other rooms. My thinking is that if I have to spend a good deal of time to just getting to another room then that is not what it meant in principle. I count that against them on design, now others had quite clever solutions to meet this requirement and I gave them extra for that. Just my thoughts on the subject. :)

[Edited by techant at Local Time:12-24-2004 at 01:30 AM: Wanted to add another 2cents]

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12-24-2004 at 12:42 AM
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Tim
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A couple of hints needed:

#4: The Entrance: I know how to kill the monsters, but how should I leave the room afterwards? Actually, I don't think it's possible...

#5:
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Due to lack of time on my hand, the story was cut out on this hold. The story plays a large, improtant role in the hold, so please make sure you include the Beginning and Final text into the mark. This was my error, not hers.
The end-of-stairs bug again. gamer, can you PM me the Final text?

-- Tim

[Edited by Tim at Local Time:12-25-2004 at 03:10 PM]

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12-25-2004 at 02:47 PM
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Jacob
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I had the same worry with entry #4, but
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Can anyone help with my previous queries?
Would also appreciate the ending of #5. Would it be possible to just write the endings on this thread (in secret tags of course), given that I, and I'm sure other people, have completed several holds already and don't really want to have to redo them all!

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12-25-2004 at 04:52 PM
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Jacob
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Oh yeah, Merry Christmas everyone.

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12-25-2004 at 04:53 PM
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Tim
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Jacob, Sorry for missing your queries, but I wasn't that far yet...

Jacob wrote:
Entry #3 1N1E: For the final section with the mimic does one need to
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because I'm struggling to do so. Any pointers?
Is a similar solution needed for entry #4 1N?
Thanks.
Short Answer:
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Long Answer: I postpone those rooms to later. :(

About #4 entrance: I would not be surpise if it is set to required. (This is a common bug that can exist when holds are being copied, besides the stairs bug.) So I hope gamer_extreme_101 can confirm this.

-- Tim

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