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12th Archivist
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Tim wrote:
12th Archivist wrote:
Any last comments?
My comment is that you should make sure yourself that your hold level set is completable. (ie. walking through any one set of exit stairs.) You might want to prepare a (very short version of) a walkthrough. It doesn't need to be much, but it would be nice to know what your stats are at the start of each new level. You don't have to, but if you do it would make my testing a lot faster.
Certainly. I'll get to work on this as soon as I have good time.

As for the accessory chain, I don't think it's possible at all to get the lucky greckle. Note that according to the HA rules, that's fine for me as long as all the (hidden) rooms is reachable in one way or another.
What makes you say that? There's a lucky greckle in Cell Block A you can get if you have at least 600 DEF and around 3000 HP.

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10-07-2010 at 12:15 AM
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Tim
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12th Archivist wrote:
What makes you say that? There's a lucky greckle in Cell Block A you can get if you have at least 600 DEF and around 3000 HP.
I think I'll need your walkthrough ;) I've never able to even to get to 500 DEF in any time I've played (though that was a very old version of the hold, as you understand I'm not going to play now if it's going to be submitted to HA very soon.)

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10-07-2010 at 12:33 AM
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Lamkin
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Yeah, I'm with Tim. I'm looking at my stats and I'm wondering how to get anywhere close to 600 DEF. Seems like kind of a catch-22 in that the only way to get that much DEF would be by obtaining the lucky greckle. I'd eventually gotten up past 500 DEF, but at that point I wasn't able to double back to get to the lucky greckle.

[Last edited by Lamkin at 10-07-2010 12:50 AM]
10-07-2010 at 12:46 AM
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ijack7
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Same here. I've gotten 576 def but that was by going into parts of Imperial Defense that I couldn't get back from because I didn't have the axe which is guarded by the lucky greckle.
10-07-2010 at 12:55 AM
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Blondbeard
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My DEF was 516 when I got the lucky greckle. And I can do a walkthrough, sometime.

If 12th wants to speed things up he can do it himself.
10-07-2010 at 05:03 AM
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Blondbeard
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I have started playing it, and making a walkthrough. Am on level 2 right now.
10-07-2010 at 09:53 PM
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12th Archivist
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My apologies. I completely forgot about the Catch-22 thing. I shall reduce the Mutants' ATK to compensate.

Like I said last week (or was it the week before?) I have a busy schedule. I will attempt to get a walkthrough finished before the end of the weekend, as I think I should finish a fair share of the testing work as well.

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10-07-2010 at 10:36 PM
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Tim
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Just to remind you, the walkthrough is not required.

If you need a week to make a walkthrough then perhaps it's better to leave that to other people.

On the other hand, make sure you know that everything works. It could be a waste of your time if you've created lots of rooms for an accessory chain (or some other parts) that no one can ever reach.

(Besides, the main reason why I asked for an walkthrough was that I wasn't sure you knew how much DEF a player would have in the endgame. Now that that problem's been solved, I can't wait to promote the thing.)

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10-08-2010 at 12:18 AM
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12th Archivist
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These are my stats for the walkthrough. Yes, this was played in the game, not the editor. No, I did not cheat whatsoever.

Click here to view the secret text

This was just my normal playthrough. I will get to work on reaching the secret ending tomorrow.

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10-08-2010 at 03:41 AM
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Blondbeard
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Ehh... You don't have to do anything about the mutants. I managed as it is right now in my last playthrough, unless you have changed their ATK upwards since then.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-08-2010 05:08 AM]
10-08-2010 at 05:08 AM
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Lamkin
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Blondbeard wrote:
Ehh... You don't have to do anything about the mutants. I managed as it is right now in my last playthrough, unless you have changed their ATK upwards since then.
I don't know...
My DEF was 517 and I had 7203 HP at the entrance of Cell Block A: 1 West, but only 615 HP afterwards. And the 7203 was almost all of the HP in the entire hold up to Imperial Defense: 3 North, 4 East, excepting about 500 HP. That wouldn't have been so bad, but then I had to fight the Cell Keeper, and I was left with only 36 HP. I'd optimized pretty well, too. I've played this hold through about seven times now.
So something needs to be changed, IMO. If the stats of the mutants aren't changed, then more health potions should be added. Again, it's just my opinion.

The second thing is there are problems still with the four Vat Keeper rooms. She disappears at times, depending on what route you take.
Also, the doors are closing behind her if you don't follow her. That's not good. (And I'm stuck now because of that. I guess I hadn't seen the doors, or paid enough attention to them.) How is anyone supposed to know for certain that she has to be followed? What if, like me, you discover her early on...before completing the accessory chain? If so, even if the player follows her, he won't be able to defeat her, and if he does manage to leave that room before that bridge collapses, he won't be able to return to the room.

The third and last thing is about the Shady Dealer. I was able to get 13 keys from him. That's a bit too many, methinks. And that's going to mess pretty badly with some of the high scores.
Perhaps there could be a limit on how many keys he'll give you? Either that, or the cost of each key could be raised; just about tripled, I would think.

[Last edited by Lamkin at 10-08-2010 08:30 PM]
10-08-2010 at 07:45 PM
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Blondbeard
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You might be right. I don't think I've met the shady dealer, however. Something new?

My walkthrough thus far:
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-08-2010 10:34 PM]
10-08-2010 at 10:33 PM
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ijack7
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I've never heard of or met the Shady Dealer either. Are we playing the same game?
10-08-2010 at 10:45 PM
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Lamkin
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Are we playing the same game? Sheesh. ;)
It's possible that you've never heard of him because he doesn't introduce himself or anything; that's his name/title (whatever) in the editor. He's in Imperial Defense: 1 South, 1 East. And yeah, he and the room he's in are a new addition to that last update.

10-09-2010 at 12:20 AM
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Blondbeard
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Is it still possible to kill the Vat Keeper with a hand bomb? Sure looks like it.

Edit, yes it is. Why didn't you fix this? I did tell you about it previously. Anyway... the way to fix it is to have the vat keeper climb on top of a closed door. That way the bomb blast can't reach her.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-09-2010 11:14 AM]
10-09-2010 at 06:42 AM
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Blondbeard
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Important! The game crashes from walking down the alternate ending stairs. Also see my comment above, and please don't make the alternate ending any easier by changing the cost to reach the lucky greckle. The alternate ending is supposed to be hardcore!

My walkthrough. Follow it roughly and you shall reach all endings:
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-09-2010 12:13 PM]
10-09-2010 at 12:06 PM
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Lamkin
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Blondbeard wrote:
[P]lease don't make the alternate ending any easier by changing the cost to reach the lucky greckle. The alternate ending is supposed to be hardcore!
Yeah, I agree with that now.
I'd replayed a little of the hold to see if I could do a slightly better job conserving my HP prior to fighting the Cell Keeper, and I'd managed to defeat him with about 120 HP left over this time around. So, though that's still cutting things awfully close, I would say to leave the lucky greckle room exactly the way it is.
Maybe you could add a couple of smaller health potions (totaling 200 HP or so) just before reaching the Cell Keeper, but that's up to you. What do you think, Blondbeard?

On the other hand, I'm going to recommend that you make it easier to defeat the Vat Keeper.
My stats just prior to fighting her were:
Click here to view the secret text

Even Blonbeard had said he was lucky to defeat her. And, as you can see, I hadn't really even gotten that close, and I feel I'd optimized the hold pretty well. So yes, though I agree one hundred percent that the alternate ending is supposed to be hard core, the way it is now is beyond hard core, IMO.

[Last edited by Lamkin at 10-09-2010 05:01 PM]
10-09-2010 at 01:13 PM
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Blondbeard
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Well... no, I was not lucky. I was sloppy at the end of my walkthrough, and I probably had around 1500 HP to pick up behind doors. I was lucky that I managed to beat her being sloppy, and leaving health potions behind. And if I optimized til the bitter end I could probably beat her with around 1500 more to spare.

Edit: When I optimize the end I beat the Vat Keeper with 1759 HP to spare, and I have another 2150 HP behind doors only waiting for me to pick them up. So in light of these stats I don't think the Vat Keeper should be made easier. Of course I might be wrong regarding just how hardcore she should be, though :)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-09-2010 02:06 PM]
10-09-2010 at 01:46 PM
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12th Archivist
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If one person can beat the Vat Keeper with her current stats (8000 HP, 1400 ATK, and 700 DEF), I will leave this as it is for now. With the availability of power in the hold, these stats are pretty hardcore.

I thought I fixed the hand bomb issue in a previous version. Oh well. I'll get this fixed.

The Creations' ATK is being returned to its original value.

There have been a few changes to the chase script that have reduced the chance of her disappearing but didn't fix it entirely. I don't know how to completely fix this.

As for the game crashing when you walk down the stairs... No clue.

New version in next post.

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~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 10-09-2010 07:33 PM]
10-09-2010 at 05:17 PM
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Blondbeard
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Hmm... Can anyone follow my walkthrough, and see if the game crashes for them also? Because that is a serious issue.

What happens is that the game starts to freez, and the sound enters a very short loop, and the game just stops. Doesn't happen with the normal ending.
10-09-2010 at 06:21 PM
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12th Archivist
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File: Break Out of Jail fin.drh (67.4 KB)
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Fixed a few things Lamkin and I talked about while chatting.

New version in this post.

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~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 10-09-2010 11:16 PM]
10-09-2010 at 07:33 PM
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Lamkin
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12th Archivist wrote:
If one person can beat the Vat Keeper with her current stats (8000 HP, 1400 ATK, and 700 DEF), I will leave this as it is for now.
Yeah, that makes sense....I agree.

Blondbeard wrote:
Hmm... Can anyone follow my walkthrough, and see if the game crashes for them also?
Well, it's frustrating as *hell* to see that I was about 5000 HP short of your HP total at the end there...and my pride won't allow me to replay the entire hold from scratch, following your walkthrough exactly. (It would feel like I was giving up and accepting defeat, dammit.)
But I will take a look at it and try and figure out where I went wrong in order to try and reach that ending and see if the game crashes for me. That I will do, sir. :)

Edit: Okay, I'd gotten a lot closer this time around, but I was still a little over 1000 HP short of that ending.

[Last edited by Lamkin at 10-10-2010 07:13 PM]
10-09-2010 at 07:46 PM
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Blondbeard
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Uhm... Is the latest version the same I played through? Is there anything that can be done about the alternate endings last cut-scene? DROD crashing on my computer makes it pretty much impossible for me to vote Yes for this hold.
10-10-2010 at 07:50 PM
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ijack7
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I was finally able to beat the Vat Keeper in the alternate ending and the game crashed for me as well, as I moved to the stairs. First everything stopped and the sound made a buzzing noise. Then the game disappeared from the screen.
10-15-2010 at 04:21 AM
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Blondbeard
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Exactly as for me :(
10-15-2010 at 05:35 AM
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Chaco
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I completed the alternate ending using Blondbeard's walkthrough, and the game froze when I reached the stairs.

My recommendation would be to delete the stairs in the room with the Vat Keeper and the score checkpoint, and make a new room to the North, containing just a new end staircase. Hopefully the bug will be successfully worked around and the hold can then go forward.

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10-15-2010 at 06:30 PM
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Midootje
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Blondbeard wrote:

1S3E: Press the plate. Get the potion, then the gems.
Blondbeard, mate, your walkthrough showed me all the flaws in my own optimising run. Except for this:
Click here to view the secret text
But seriously, great job on the walkthrough. I've used my accessories wrongly so many times that I decided to look for one, and yours is amazing.
Also, 12th Archivist, this was your first hold?? It's FAR more complex than Tendry's Tale! Great job on that! I loved it!

Edit: Oh, and a second bit where improvements could be made:
Blondbeard wrote:
Cell block B (collect potions) Take large potion in 1W, take large potion in 2S1W Cell block A: Get the hook.
Click here to view the secret text


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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

[Last edited by Midootje at 05-29-2011 09:57 PM]
05-29-2011 at 08:42 PM
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Blondbeard
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Glad to see the optimizers mindset :)
05-29-2011 at 10:39 PM
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Midootje
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I have one more thing to say: I think this hold is impossible to solve with 100% secrets completed! This is because:
Click here to view the secret text
Do you perhaps have an explanation for this 12th Archivist, was it intentional to make the player choose between the bonuses and the invisibility potion?

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.
05-29-2011 at 11:49 PM
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Midootje
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12th Archivist wrote:
ijack7 wrote:
Spoiler below.
Click here to view the secret text

I did not find any additional errors or bugs up to that point, so it looks good.
You used the speed potion to beat the Vat Keeper? You were supposed to do that only after obtaining the invisibility potion!
If that happened, I will need to make the secret boss more difficult. Either that, or make one last secret room that can be reached only if the player didn't use the invisibility potion of the boss. Come to think of it, I'll do both, carefully.
I think the point ijack7 was trying to make, is that if you take the speed potion to the Vat Keeper's room, and use it there, you move twice as fast as her and can get past the collapsing bridges, without getting stuck in the middle like you're supposed to. I guess it's a very unintended solution, and it could be fixed by making the bridges two squares longer in total.

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

[Last edited by Midootje at 05-30-2011 03:38 AM]
05-30-2011 at 03:37 AM
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