Jacob
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File: Reflections.hold (13.9 KB)
Downloaded 59 times.
License: Public Domain

Not too sure where I'm going with this (especially after I vowed not to start making a new hold). I don't think I'll make this as expansive as my previous holds.

I'd be grateful for exported demos, because it makes it easier to examine unintended solutions. But any comments are welcome.
Thanks.

[Edit: Hmm, the spur-of-the-moment name I thought up, gives me an idea...]
[Edit 2: Corrected rooms]
[Edit 3: Extra level, renamed levels (sorry), corrected rooms]
[Edit 4 : Added story, corrected some rooms]
[Edit 5: Added room to Symmetry. New experimental level]
[Edit 6: Aesthetic changes, new room, fixed broken room]
[Edit 7-9: Variations on Symmetry 1S]
[Edit 10: A couple of hub rooms]

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[Last edited by Jacob at 01-05-2009 12:54 AM]

CuriousShyRabbit
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I've played through this one. Jacob, I hope you keep making holds as long as the inspiration strikes you.

The puzzles are pretty tricky this time around, but still possible for Rabbits, which means I like them. I would have appreciated checkpoints in the tar rooms, especially since you've asked for demos, which can't be created with UU in the editor. And here are all my demos, submitted for your approval.

EDIT: I've removed my demos, since Jacob got them.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 11-21-2008 06:27 PM]

Jacob
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Many thanks. You've uncovered 3 unintended solutions!
I'll get onto fixing them and add in some more checkpoints.

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Blondbeard
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Hmm... I don't know how to make demos in a bundle like the rabbit. I have played it through, and there appears to be a bit more potions aviailable than needed. Perhaps this is intentional. I'll post my demos in different posts if you want me to.

Edit: All done. Quite nice little hold

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-21-2008 06:18 PM]

CuriousShyRabbit
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Blondbeard wrote:
Hmm... I don't know how to make demos in a bundle like the rabbit.

It's not hard. Go to your F6 screen, and press "Export All". This puts all your demos for the hold into one file.

Also, if you don't want to export all your demos from the entire hold, you can export several demos from the same level at once. To do this, go to your F6 screen, click to select one demo, control-click to select an additional demo, and press "Export". This will put all the selected demos into one file.

Blondbeard
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File: Reflections.demo (5.8 KB)
Downloaded 57 times.
License: Public Domain

Even I can do that.

Jacob
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Blondbeard wrote: I have played it through, and there appears to be a bit more potions aviailable than needed.

I may be wrong, but in all but Reflections 1N (which had the unintended solution), you've all but one of the potions. Which is intended (you can't take the last one anyway, because then the whole bridge will fall, killing you).

I think I've now fixed Symmetry entrance and Reflections 1N.
Will have a think about some more rooms at some point.

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Jacob
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Sorry, still need to put in a few more checkpoints.

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Blondbeard
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Jacob wrote:

Blondbeard wrote: I have played it through, and there appears to be a bit more potions aviailable than needed.

I may be wrong, but in all but Reflections 1N (which had the unintended solution), you've all but one of the potions. Which is intended (you can't take the last one anyway, because then the whole bridge will fall, killing you).

I think I've now fixed Symmetry entrance and Reflections 1N.
Will have a think about some more rooms at some point.

Right you are! Hmm... Not my best comment day, apperantly.

And I don't think you need more rooms, but some text here and there would be nice. I would appreciate a story more than new rooms (to make the hold as a whole as good as possible).

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-25-2008 09:49 AM]

CuriousShyRabbit
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I think I've done Reflections 1N properly now, using 3 of the 4 potions. The trapdoor forced me to use a decoy to help lure the goblins out.

EDIT: I've removed the demo since Jacob got it.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 11-25-2008 11:00 PM]

Jacob
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Well, you've found another unintended solution. Have a point.
I give up. I was going for something extra clever in that variant - not sure how to enforce it.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I'm sorry. "Extra clever" is not a phrase that describes Rabbits. Rabbits are messy and do things any way that happens to work. I didn't break it on purpose.

Might I have a hint on what I was supposed to do?

Anyway, I'm not confident that this is what you wanted for Symmetry : Entrance and Symmetry : 1S, but here's what I did. Did you want to make 1S secret instead of required?

EDIT: Removed demo.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 11-27-2008 03:20 AM]

Blondbeard
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File: R Reflections 1N Victory.demo (1.4 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

This I think is quite clever. The room is compleatable with just a decoy and a mimic. In fact I like this solution enough that I think you could make a room out of it. Just keep the room as it is, and remove a mimic potion.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-26-2008 01:33 PM]

Jacob
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Excellent, thanks, you've got it - that's very close to the original solution. The original intended solution was to get 2 mimics do leave a platform at the intersection of the eyes' gaze and then drop a decoy there (and then in the most recent version bring a mimic back to kill the second eye).

But as you've demonstrated (and as I somehow missed) you don't need 2 mimics and you don't need to activate both eyes.

I just need to check that this new version doesn't leave an unintended solution still.

New version (to be posted shortly) will have 6 more rooms.

Edit: Still don't know how to fix Symmetry Entrance.


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[Last edited by Jacob at 11-26-2008 08:05 PM]

Jacob
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OK, here's a new version.
Added in a new level - I was trying to see if it was possible to make a room that would play differently when flipped on an axis.
Some of those rooms also play differently when flipped on the X-axis too (they're all done on the Y-axis here), but they're still probably repetitive enough, so I didn't bother.

Sorry I renamed the levels, but it makes a bit more sense this way.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I like the new level. The reflected rooms do indeed play differently. 1N & 1N1E seemed a harder variation of Entrance & 1E, as they all rely on the brained preference of W over E. 1S & 1S1E seemed very different though, as they exploit the movement order of golems created by splitting a giant. I found I needed to solve 1S1E before 1S. If you wanted to, I bet you could also do something evil with snakes on this level.

For Distorted Images 1N, I believe I've done it your way now. I should have realized that the extra platforms near the beginning of the room would be key to the solution in one of the variations. The little Rabbit-trick I used in my previous solution - using a decoy to get the goblins out of their hole alive before sending Beethro in there - now isn't used in any of the variations.

Thank you for the checkpoints in the Symmetry tar rooms. In Symmetry Entrance, you made my previous solution harder, but not impossible. I had to make my platform bridge that slowed down briar growth even longer. This time, I extended it all the way into the left-hand chamber where the decoy potion was.

Should I continue posting demos here, or have you seen enough messy Rabbit solutions?

Blondbeard
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File: Reflections.demo (9.9 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

I found the new level a bit meh! The problem is that it's so much easier than the other levels. I would find it alright if you forced the player to start with that level, kind of like an introduction to the overall theme. Also my solution for the entrance in Symmetry is definitly not the intended.

mxvladi
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What an awesome hold!

New level, however, is quite easy. Here're all my demos to it.


EDIT: Removed since Jacob got it.

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 11-27-2008 05:22 PM]

Jacob
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CSR, thanks for the comments, I don't think your current demos will add much to what you've already done. Symmetry Entrance is now a compromise between my original intentions and the solutions you discovered. I'm fairly happy with the final outcome (though the platform manipulation is a little repetitive).

Blondbeard's solution is of course unintended and is fixed with some orthosquares.

Thanks, mxvladi. I'd thought all the rooms were straightforward but in fact you've revealed that 1N1E is even easier than intended.

I'm going to do something with the hub and possibly add another level, then submit.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 11-27-2008 05:20 PM]

Jacob
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OK, now this is approaching something like a hold.
I left out the force arrows in the peripheral rooms in the hub level so it can be solved in one go, in case you want to see the ending (which I think is cool).

Also added an introductory level, corrected 2 unintended solutions and added some more speech.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I like the story, and indeed the ending is very cool!

Introduction
* This level needs entrance text.
* Typo: "These demons have taken over out Holy..."
* The puzzle may have an unintended solution. It looks like you want me to put an aumtlich and a mirror on the pressure plates, so the other aumtlich will light his own fuse. That would be pretty cool, and it involves some tricky mirror/raft manipulation... Except I can avoid the pressure plates altogether and use the first aumtlich to light the fuse directly.

Stairs and Level Entrances
* It looks like you're taking Blondbeard's advice and want to force me to solve the easier Reflections level before the other two puzzle levels. In that case, you need to remove one set of stairs from Reflections. I should only be able to leave the level after dropping the blue door. Going back to the hub before completing the level doesn't get me anywhere.
* You may wish to change the level entrance text in Prism 1N, 1W, and 1E, to something more story-like.
* The stairs at the end of the Distorted Images level end the hold. I don't understand why they don't show up orange in the editor, but they really don't go anywhere.

The character in Symmetry 1N is vulnerable. Don't know if that's intended.

You may wish to write a more story-like hold ending text.

Blondbeard
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The characters speaks a bit too quickly in the beginning. A slow reader like me doesn't really have time to read everything. Apart from that everything looks nice and neat. Well done!

Jacob
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Added a room to an existing level.
Created a new experimental level. The puzzles there go against the DROD ethic, I suppose. But it's a new kind of puzzle using the DROD elements.
I'd be interested to know what you think.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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All done again.

This time, in Introduction, I used both pressure plates (a mirror on one, and an aumtlich frozen on Beethro's sword on the other). Definitely not trivial this time.

The Prism and the Light level seems very dark to me today. There's a chance that people will turn off alpha-blending just to see where they're going, and then totally miss the point of the new level, as well as the hold ending. I couldn't see the secret passage to the new level at all, and if you hadn't told me there was another level, I wouldn't have looked for it in the editor.

The new room in Symmetry 1S has an unintended solution (attached).

I was initially annoyed by the new puzzles in Darkness, but after forcing myself to solve a few in the intended way, they started to grow on me. In contrast to navigating a tar-covered maze, where all you get is shadows from north and west walls and the backspace key, the logical clues in these darkness puzzles are much richer. The sword and Beethro's expression work as a roach sensing device. Moving and bumping reveals objects that might be walls, doors, force arrows, or orbs. Striking with the sword resolves which are orbs and the connected doors. Waiting can reveal hot tiles. Roach movement and attempts to retrace Beethro's steps can reveal force arrows (but I didn't get their directions totally correct). The 5x5 puzzle areas keep these darkness puzzles manageable. However, it's very easy to cheat by right clicking and totally skip the clue-finding aspects of these puzzles. But, all things considered, these are very clever puzzles.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 12-07-2008 02:11 AM : Removed demo]

TFMurphy
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A Darkness level is even *easier* to cheat in by just going to "Change Settings" and turning Alpha Blending off. (Which some people on older machines may have off anyways to have the game run faster)

This is why coloured lights and darkness shouldn't be relied upon as game elements or the sole source of clues if you can help it.

EDIT: I'll also note that just as with previous tricks of this nature, the minimap reveals a lot of information.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 12-03-2008 03:30 PM]

Jacob
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I'm aware of all these problems with the rooms in Darkness, but there's no real way of getting around them.
They're just in there as an optional challenge - the player can choose whether or not they want to cheat. I will mention, in the hold description, that the hold is best played with alpha blending on.

Symmetry 1S - Oops, I was aware of that, but made so many alterations that I ended up leaving in the incorrect tar timer.

The new version should fix that. Thanks

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I like the reflecting pools in the Reflections level. The lighter style in Symmetry looks nice too. Could I talk you into making The Prism and the Light a tad lighter too? I don't think that would ruin the ending. You'd still be adding brilliant colors to an otherwise gray level.

A couple questions:

Where is the new room, mentioned in the edit to the top post?

What is the player's reward for completing Darkness in the intended way?

And I'm sorry to inform you that Symmetry 1S still has an unintended solution. You can: remove the fuses, let tar babies form on both bad pressure plates, then place the decoy, and complete the room at your leisure.

Jacob
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>> Could I talk you into making The Prism and the Light a tad lighter too?

Done.

>> Where is the new room, mentioned in the edit to the top post?

Hub level 1N. Not as interesting as I'd originally planned, but better than 1 brain.

>> What is the player's reward for completing Darkness in the intended way?

Hmmm, not sure. There's way of knowing whether a player's right clicked or turned alpha blending on or off, so how can I provide a reward?

>> And I'm sorry to inform you that Symmetry 1S still has an unintended solution.

?Fixed now?


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CuriousShyRabbit
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D'oh! I see the new hub puzzle now. Thanks for lightening up that level. Yes, definitely more interesting than stabbing a helpless brain. I found the trick was to
I think you have fixed Symmetry 1S, maybe you'd like to double-check that this is a messy version of the intended solution.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 12-10-2008 06:53 AM : Removed demo]

Jacob
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Hmm, this is tricky.
Your solution is similar to mine, but cleverer.
On the other hand, it's technically easier to do, and wasn't what I'd intended.
So I have a dilemma.
I have put in an arrow which prevents that solution and enforces mine (at least I think so - there are probably still unintended solutions). Please let me know what you think.

May just neaten up the levels, texts etc and submit.

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