Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

[NOTE: the first few posts in this topic refer to Kunzite Tower, an abandoned hold. For information on Nobard's Hold, see a few posts down.]

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-06-2009 10:48 PM]

underscorpion
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 17
Registered: 06-17-2008
IP: Logged

Easy hold
My scores: (I know, not so good, but I haven't got much time now to optimize it )

Add story, some NPCs like in Tendry's Tale, and make the guards NPCs - now you can step on his sword and lose 220 HP
How to put Score Checkpoint? So, put the NPC in room, called "Gray Man", with Gray Man tiles, set his HP, ATK etc. just like original Gray Man, then make him unkillable (in Imperatives), and add command "Wait for defeat", add "Score Checkpoint" (you can write in it "Gray Man defeated", or sth like this), "Game Effect Blood Splatter", and finally "Disappear". You can also add "End", but it is not necessary. Oh, and you can put "Behaviour Face Target" too of course!
So, good luck with larger version!

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I'm one of the polish DROD players

-=Sorry for my English =-

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[Last edited by underscorpion at 10-28-2008 06:20 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3659
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Actually, for boss-defeating score checkpoints, I usually make a new NPC that contains two lines:

Wait while entity monster at (boss monster's location)
Score Checkpoint "Defeated 1st boss"

Works very well and also makes it possible to have boss encounters feature multiple monsters.

(I'll go check out your hold now, Nuntar.)

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I've abandoned this hold, but the layout of the first couple of rooms will be kept for the beginning of my new hold Nobard's Hold.

Yes, KT is ridiculously easy, but in my defence I was aiming at players (like me) who probably won't find all the secret stuff the first time they pass through a level. (I've just checked -- the entire level can be completed without opening a single secret wall, although you can't get the shield that way, and the best ATT/DEF you can finish with is 29/13. If I were continuing KT I'd make it so that wasn't enough to get you through Level 2, but I'm not.)

Lessons I've learned from this first attempt:

* One defence gem can make a huge difference to pre-boss HP, so don't make too many available so easily.

* Don't put quite so much good stuff in the secret rooms on just one level. A better use of secret rooms is to make them contain the same good stuff (especially gems and green/blue keys) that are available elsewhere on the level, but make it so that if you find the secret room you don't have to spend so much HP / keys to get the stuff.

* Don't use roaches to guard half the items on the first level -- you get zero HP loss against roaches too early on.

So let's hope for fewer mistakes in my next attempt!

(By the way, the fact that you lose HP if you trip on the guards' swords was quite deliberate. Think about it -- those things are sharp.)

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

My own scores for KT:

HP 868
Att 50 (I didn't get the last power-up as it doesn't affect your HP loss vs. the Gray Man)
Def 23
Gr 309 (I left some enemies untouched because if it was a full hold I would come back for them once I could kill them with zero HP loss)

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I've now edited the first post with my current work-in-progress: Nobard's Hold.

The first level of NH is basically the first level of KT, with these changes:

* Fewer secrets. I may add more later.
* No wooden shield, short sword, or end-of-level boss. I've put stairs just beyond the first green door, and all these will be placed on Level 2.
* It's harder. I've added greckle gates, yellow doors and harder enemies blocking some of the good stuff. Getting everything on the level now leaves you with less than 100 HP. The intention is that perfect optimisation requires coming back for some of the goodies later. Yes, I know this frustrating when Level 2 isn't done yet, but I'll keep adding new levels as I make them.
* There is now a story and some speech. No NPCs yet, but there will be some as you get higher into the tower.

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50th Skywatcher

underscorpion
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 17
Registered: 06-17-2008
IP: Logged

I don't like this hold. KT was too much enjoyable I think (only too easy ). I think you to complete KT and make it harder (greckle doors and harder enemies), but not remove any room or Gray Man.

It's only my opinion. You can keep making this hold if you like it more than KT, of course

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I'm one of the polish DROD players

-=Sorry for my English =-

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[Last edited by underscorpion at 10-29-2008 05:36 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Don't worry -- all the rooms I removed will be on Level 2. The only difference is that you have to go up some stairs to reach them.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Level 2 has been added, and the shield and Gray Man are back! I've also added the score checkpoint -- hope I've done it correctly.

Not sure about the difficulty level... in testing I got completely stuck, so I threw in a couple more HP potions so the player can progress. Again, you're not meant to be able to get everything at this stage; you should need to return for some of the stuff after tackling higher levels. I'm not even sure if the shield can be obtained yet; let me know if you manage to get it.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

You've done something wrong. Still just the first level. Ypu'll have to re-upload it.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

The shield can be obtained with some 300 lives to spare (and one key, and some lives to pick up, and some keys to pick up). However I can't reach the gray man yet if I go for the shield. If I don't go for the shield I barely managed to beat the Gray Man.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-30-2008 12:55 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Good, that seems about right. I'm working on Level 3 now -- it will be reached through a staircase next to the Gray Man, so if you can't beat him yet you can go and tackle more enemies and come back for him when you're stronger. The Gray Man will block the route into the central part of Level 2 (Ent. to 4S).

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Nice hold, by the way! Lots of choises and optimization possibilities.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thank you! Glad to know you like it so far.

I've updated the first post with the correct room styles... I hadn't realised that styles are set on a per-room rather than per-level basis, so most of the rooms weren't set to the styles I intended. I've also started making Level 3, but don't bother going there yet....

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Level 3's done and should be fully playable. I've also added a mini-boss to Level 1.

This is meant to be a non-linear hold; the first major divergence occurs in Level 2: 5S, where the player has the choice of fighting the Gray Man, opening access to another area on Level 2, or ascending to Level 3. I haven't yet built the rest of Level 2, so don't bother with the Gray Man; concentrate on trying to defeat the Level 3 boss and tell me what score you get if you beat them.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 10-30-2008 03:44 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

A serious matter on the third floor: The attack boosts doesn't matter at all. All the monsters have 68 as their next step, and there's no way you will get there. Perhaps a really hard to get sword might be an idea? If level 3 is the last level I think you definitly should put in a sword somewhere. And the two north-western rooms have this passage you can't reach.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-31-2008 08:14 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Intentional, I'm afraid

The rock golems are indeed meant to be impossible to kill without a better sword, which will be located in the central wing of Level 2. (Notice how far south all the room coordinates are? That's because you're in the south wing of the castle.)

The NW passage is meant to fool the player into thinking that's the way to reach the staircase, whereas in fact it's reached through a secret passage only accessible after killing a boss concealed in the centre of the labyrinth. The "missing" room 5S2W will eventually contain a return staircase down from Level 4.

What I'm most interested in knowing at the moment is (1) whether the Master Brains can be beaten just with the power-ups available from the three levels so far, and what your stats are if so; and (2) whether the Gray Man is more easily beatable if the player does part of Level 3 before returning to Level 2 (i.e. if I've not set the HP cost of the Level 3 power-ups too high.)

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Just so you know I'm not asking you to do all my playtesting work for me:

I've reached 7S on Level 3 with 1024 HP, 49 ATT, 21 DEF, and a green key. I can use this key either to go back and beat the Gray Man on Level 2 (320 damage) or to pick up the potion and DEF gem from Level 3: 5S1E, which puts me on 1095 HP and decreases the expected damage from the boss fight to 1096. [EDIT: aha, managed to get the potion in Level 3: 8S2E. Now I can get past the boss fight -- score 333.]

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 10-31-2008 01:22 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

There's enough power ups. I managed to beat them although I wasn't at top efficiency. And I got the gray man afterwards, and the blue key. ATK 54, DEF 26. There's a bug also. If you go directly on the monsters with your swor turned towards the orb, the monsters will appear behind you as you walk. Score 424.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-31-2008 01:48 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thanks!

I've corrected that bug and made Level 3 a bit harder -- just changed some large potions to medium and some medium to small. Don't bother replaying it (Blondbeard and anyone else reading) if you've beaten Level 3; there'll be more actual content coming soon.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Have to replay level 3 anyway. Otherwise my later level play will be benefitted from the fact that the level is harder than when I played it.

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
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I beat it. Got the shield before the third level. I think there's a fairly flexible solution, as I didn't really try to optimise the third level. I thought it was rather hard, overall (I had to restart a lot). Great hold!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

How hard did you both find the orb puzzle in Second Floor: 7S? The intended way to reach the secret room is



but did I miss a much simpler route?

(By the way, the next update should be ready soon....)

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

New update, with the central wing of the second floor added. I'm afraid this wing contains an orb puzzle, a trapdoor puzzle and a Sokoban puzzle, so it may lower your opinion of the hold, but I have integrated these puzzles into the plot (as you'll see when I build further) and also, the first two are optional.

Would appreciate an answer to the question in the post above this one.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

The orbpuzzles are quite nice. I didn't solve the puzzle exactly like you, but something like that.

New scores:

Twin Brains: 518 (84/71/37/2/0/1)

Daniel: 721 (1620/96/37/3/3/0)

No possibility to beat the guards yet, but that day might be soon. Oh, and you can get very many powerups cheap once you've gotten the sword. I sugest that level 4 demands that you get the sword, and that you have at least 1000 lives and (See my stats after the Daniel fight as a reference).

Edit: Before I go down to level 4 I can easily collect so I have 2200 lives, and five green keys and five yellow keys.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-03-2008 01:27 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Blondbeard wrote:
Oh, and you can get very many powerups cheap once you've gotten the sword.

True! I hadn't really been taking that into account -- I'll have to do some replaying and rethinking before I go any further.

By the way, it's a castle, not a dungeon -- higher-numbered levels are further up

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

OK, I've made some quite substantial changes -- substantial in that although only a few things have changed, the effect should be fairly large.

I've removed a couple of ATT power-ups -- not very many though -- and made that secret room on the first level require two green keys to enter. I've placed a blue key where the shield was and the shield where the sword was, and the blue key on the third floor is now harder to get (you must kill all enemies before you can reach the two brains, and you must sacrifice a green key).

The intention is that there will soon be a big boss fight, at the end of the central wing of Level 3, and that will be equivalent to the skeleton on Level 10 of Tower of the Sorceror -- you get access to a much larger area if you beat him, and the second sword will now be in that area. (After all, there are only a few swords and shields in the game, and I don't want the player to get through all the available ones too fast.) There will also be two further areas accessible before the boss fight to help weaker players prepare: the central wing of Level 1 will be a good place to accumulate greckles (thanks to the x1 multiplier) which you can then cash in for big power-ups on Level 4. Strong players should be able to reach the shield sooner and not need to do so much back-and-forthing between those areas.

Let me know if you can still reach the shield with the power-ups on the levels currently available. (I'll be playtesting myself as well, of course, but it always helps to have a second opinion.) Sorry to make you start from the beginning again -- I promise I'll try to make this the last time. I've added the doors north from Level 3: 5S even though they don't currently go anywhere so that you'll have them on your save file.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-04-2008 05:28 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hmm, a bit of playtesting suggests that maybe I've now made it too hard. I can get the shield -- amusingly my REP when I reach it is precisely 666 -- but there's no easy way to re-accumulate HP so I can fight either Daniel or the Master Brains.

I'm not sure at this point whether I should change it at once or wait for a second opinion before doing so... maybe someone who's better than me at optimising doesn't find it at all hard?

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50th Skywatcher

moldar
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 54
Registered: 02-13-2003
IP: Logged

I've been trying repeatedly, and I gotta agree - too hard at this point.

HP gains are too sparse, many of them stuck behind doors and requiring using one of the preciousssss yellow keys.

Plus, the hidden rooms with brains are a bit harsh, to the extent that they are not even worth trying to get to them.

My two cents.

Moldar

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I think it's a bit better! I played it from the beginning, and defeted the brains with 5 lives, 62 ATK and 30 DEF. I then proceeded to beat Daniel with a score of 418.

I know I didn't played optimally. I think you should beat the brains before you even take the shield. It is costly to get that shield now. I had to be hit 60 times to make up for the damage it took to get it.