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BoyBlue
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icon Mimic behavior (+2)  
How mimics behave in Architect's Edition
1. When the player rotates, the mimic rotates.

2. When the player moves to a new square, the mimic checks to see if an appropriate adjacent square is available (subject to simple rules, not given here, about what makes a square "available"). If one is, it moves to it.

How mimics behave in JtRH
(same as above)

How mimics behave in TCB 3.0 through 3.1.x.54
(same as above)

How mimics behave in TCB 3.1.1.55/56:
1. When the player rotates, the mimic rotates.

2. When the player moves to a new square, the mimic checks to see if an appropriate adjacent square is available. If one is, it moves to it. Otherwise, check if MIRROR BREAKING RULE (see below) applies for the direction the player moved. Otherwise, do nothing.

3. When the player attempts to move in some direction, but cannot do so for any reason (see NOTE #1), check if MIRROR BREAKING RULE applies for that direction (see NOTE #2). Otherwise, do nothing. (see NOTE #3)

MIRROR BREAKING RULE: Given a direction, if there is a mirror in the adjacent square in that direction, and the mimic's sword is over that mirror, then the mimic "bumps" the mirror, breaking it, and remains at the same location.

NOTE #1: And I do mean any (in-game) reason. It includes bumping into a pit or water, whatever that means. It includes cases where the player would not be able to bump an adjacent square with his body, due to a force arrow or aumtlich beam. It includes attempting to use non-functional tunnels, or bumping into objects offscreen in the next room.

NOTE #2: This means that a mimic can sometimes break a mirror without moving, even if there's nothing blocking the mirror or the mimic. This is something Beethro cannot do.

NOTE #3: Mimics apparently never bump anything except mirrors, but there are so few cases where bumping into something has an effect that it's hard to tell what the general rule is intended to be.


I'm not in favor of this change. It's unnecessary; it's arbitrary; it will break demos and maybe some rooms; and it sets a bad precedent. It suggests that mimics are supposed to copy every action that's logically possible, instead of just following a few simple rules. Trying to copy everything that's logically possible may sound like a good idea at first, but it can lead to hopeless complications and arguments about what is the "correct" way to translate an action at one location to an action at a non-equivalent location.

02-08-2008 at 01:36 AM
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Syntax
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
Although this discussion starts with a bug report involving tokens, it is the original discussion which I believe was responsible for the change.

Worth reading to see the reasons behind the updated behaviour.

[Last edited by Syntax at 02-08-2008 06:47 PM]
02-08-2008 at 06:46 PM
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Syntax
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (0)  
Well, in that case, my link is there for others who may be wondering why the change was made.
02-09-2008 at 06:30 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
All of it makes sense to me other than the mimic breaking the mirror when Beethro does not move (and bumps into a wall/arrow/whatever instead). This seems counterintuitive. I intuitively don't have a problem with the other changes.

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02-09-2008 at 06:45 PM
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Syntax
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (0)  
Jacob wrote:
All of it makes sense to me other than the mimic breaking the mirror when Beethro does not move (and bumps into a wall/arrow/whatever instead). This seems counterintuitive. I intuitively don't have a problem with the other changes.
Yeah I do agree with you on this. I've yet to see it in-game, but it would be rather counter-intuitive.
02-09-2008 at 08:06 PM
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BoyBlue
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (0)  
Though I still don't see a need to change the rules in the middle of the game, I think Jacob's suggestion is fairly reasonable. (I interpret his suggestion as eliminating my rule #3.) At least it doesn't introduce a whole new vaguely-defined action that mimics react to. It doesn't suddenly make it possible to build rooms that can only be solved by bumping into, say, a wraithwing, as is currently possible in build 56.

You could then more-or-less explain the behavior just by redefining how a mimic picks an available square. Suppose the player moves diagonally. The mimic first checks if the diagonal square is available, then the vertical square, then the horizontal square. If none are available, its fourth option is to check if there is a breakable mirror in the diagonal square. If so, it tries to move there, fails, and breaks the mirror instead.

(You might wonder if the mimic will ever keep going and check for a breakable mirror in the vertical and horizontal squares. It does not; not in build 56 anyway.)
02-10-2008 at 02:44 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
Okay, let's clear some of this up.

First off, the behavior isn't *precisely* mirror-specific. The code itself is all to do with the movement of the *sword*. The rules are now the same as for Beethro moving with a sword: if you pick a direction but don't actually move, then it counts as a stab forward if you tried to move in the direction you're facing. No checking for mirrors is done by the Mimic. If anything else ends up also being affected by this stab forward other than mirrors, then Mimics, under the current rules, will automatically be able to do it. Again, it's a function of sword movement, not solely of mirrors.

The current behavior is set up such that if Beethro was in a position such that a move would break a mirror, then the Mimic would as well. That's why the 3rd rule in your post exists: if Beethro and a Mimic were in identical positions, then if Beethro bump-breaks a mirror, it seems intuitive that the mimic should as well.

The *generalised* case of this is what also leads to situations where a mimic can break a mirror without moving, but that's no less a trick than "displace the mimic by using the fact that they can't bump-break mirrors at all".

The exact rules for Mimics in this case are:
1. When the player rotates, the mimic rotates.
2. When the player moves to a new square, the mimic checks to see if an appropriate adjacent square is available. If one is, it moves to it.
3. When the player attempts to move in some direction, but cannot do so for any reason, then the mimic does not move.
4. If the mimic did not move, then if it was swordless, it will turn to face the direction the player tried to move. If it did have a sword, and the direction the player tried to move was in the same direction the mimic was facing, it does a "stab forward". Both of these are new moves Beethro can accomplish due to the changes in TCB.

BoyBlue wrote:
NOTE #1: And I do mean any (in-game) reason. It includes bumping into a pit or water, whatever that means. It includes cases where the player would not be able to bump an adjacent square with his body, due to a force arrow or aumtlich beam. It includes attempting to use non-functional tunnels, or bumping into objects offscreen in the next room.

In all those cases, Beethro would break a mirror (providing a mirror could exist there in the first place). Yes, Beethro can break mirrors against the direction of a Force Arrow or while trapped in an Aumtlich beam. If you think that's unintuitive, then that's fine, but that's a different thing altogether.

BoyBlue wrote:
NOTE #3: Mimics apparently never bump anything except mirrors, but there are so few cases where bumping into something has an effect that it's hard to tell what the general rule is intended to be.

No other current elements make sense for it. Mimics certainly don't get all the other benefits of Power Tokens, so there's no real reason they should be able to bump orbs. It's also not the only movement-related thing that Mimics can do: they can move Platforms, they can trigger Fuses. Why can't they bump-break mirrors? Because they don't bump things? But as you say, there's so few things that they *could* logically bump and get an effect. They certainly have a sword though.

===

I'm not saying this isn't debatable. Your point that mimics should follow simple rules rather than complicated exceptions is a good one. But as the previous thread demonstrates, there's certainly different conclusions that you can draw from all this, and some of the rules feel more intuitive in particular situations than others.

If we do revert this change, I'd rather go back to Mimics not bump-breaking things at all though: only bump-breaking when Beethro moves - and not when Beethro does a bump-break himself - would feel more arbitrary than either other possibility.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 02-10-2008 06:42 PM]
02-10-2008 at 04:20 PM
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zex20913
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So...a mimic can now "stab forward" even if Beethro bumped a pit/wall? That seems highly counter-intuitive. If Beethro can wait with sword on a mirror, why can't a mimic do the same?

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02-10-2008 at 05:51 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+2)  
zex20913 wrote:
So...a mimic can now "stab forward" even if Beethro bumped a pit/wall? That seems highly counter-intuitive. If Beethro can wait with sword on a mirror, why can't a mimic do the same?

Mimics *can* wait with sword on a mirror... if Beethro waits. Or if Beethro doesn't move in the direction of the mirror. If Beethro bumps a pit/wall, he automatically pushes forward if his sword is in that direction.

The question boils down to this:
#######      # = Wall
#O.#O.#      O = Mirror (with sword resting on it)
##M##B#      M = Mimic
##.##.#      B = Beethro


What happens if Beethro moves northwest? Under Build 55+ rules: if there wasn't a mirror in front of Beethro, then Beethro would walk NW, and the Mimic would move N. However, in this case, there is one. So Beethro would bump-break the mirror. And in Build 55+, the Mimic would do the same. However, anything that Beethro does in that situation to save his mirror would also prevent the Mimic from breaking the mirror it's next to. So in that respect, it's an intuitive result.

Under original rules, the Mimic would not break the mirror, and in fact *could not* break a mirror in that position. This can be a logical and consistent result in its own way.

Under the compromise rules brought up in this thread, the Mimic could only break the mirror if Beethro successfully walked forward: not if Beethro bumped a wall or even bump-broke a mirror in the same direction. This, to me, seems the most inconsistent - either Mimics can bump-break or they can't.

===

If you're going to debate this one way or the other, please look over the examples - or even come up with your own - and see how things will react under the different rules in different situations - just reading the rules doesn't entirely reflect the results you can get from them. Some people are saying that bump-breaking is intuitive, but not in all situations: so what situations should these be? Those are the questions that need to be answered to resolve this.
02-10-2008 at 06:24 PM
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Sillyman
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I agree with build 55. Allowing the mimic to break a mirror if Beethro bumps an obstacle doesn't interfere with anything, after all, you can simply press 5 if you don't want to get 7 years worth of bad luck. However, I am still willing to consider compromises.
Better compromise rules: Mimic can bump-break if Beethro moves or bump-breaks a mirror, but not if he bumps into a wall.

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02-10-2008 at 06:38 PM
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BoyBlue
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
Thanks for bringing up the issue of swordless mimics. I hadn't noticed that change -- it's not explicitly listed in the release notes. This means that, theoretically at least, some mirrorless rooms/demos may also be broken.

I know that Beethro can stab mirrors even when immobilized by an aumtlich beam or force arrow, and I have no problem with that.

If the player actually does something, whether it be bumping into a wall or stabbing a mirror, then it's at least arguable that a mimic ought to try to take the equivalent action, whatever that might mean.

But if the player tries to do something that's impossible, such as moving when immobilized by an aumtlich (and he's not pointed in the right direction to "stab"), then how the heck does the mimic react to that? Can mimics read minds?

I get the distinct impression that the mimic is reacting to my keyboard commands, instead of reacting to Beethro, which just doesn't fit my mental model of how mimics work.
02-10-2008 at 07:38 PM
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TFMurphy
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BoyBlue wrote:
But if the player tries to do something that's impossible, such as moving when immobilized by an aumtlich (and he's not pointed in the right direction to "stab"), then how the heck does the mimic react to that? Can mimics read minds?

I get the distinct impression that the mimic is reacting to my keyboard commands, instead of reacting to Beethro, which just doesn't fit my mental model of how mimics work.

I'll confess: I'm not sure exactly how mimics are supposed to work either, from a canon standpoint. But two examples spring to mind:

1) Mimics move even if you're invisible to them. Fegundos don't.
2) If you're swordless and frozen by an Aumtlich beam, what's the difference between rotating to face a direction or simply pushing in that direction? To the mimic: a big difference.

So they're clearly getting more information than just what can be seen.
02-11-2008 at 12:03 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
From King Dugan's Dungeon 2.0. Third Level: Thrice North.

"I must warn you about mimics. They are neither your friends nor your enemies--they simply like to move exactly as you do. Don't turn your back on them."

My understanding of mimics is that they move the way of Beethro's result. If the result is a non-movement from a bump, they should not move.

For your two considerations:
1. Mimics have a mental connection with Beethro. They were created by him, so can respond to his motion attempts. Fegundo are their own creatures--perhaps robots--that have to see how their "mover" is facing before they can respond to it.

2. With bumps/hindered movement, the mimic hears Beethro say "I tried to move northwest, but couldn't." The mimic then doesn't move, because Beethro didn't. After this, if Beethro turns, that's because he didn't have a sword, and could turn. That is part of the "I tried to move northwest." Whereas Beethro's thought process when turning is about turning--not attempting to move a certain direction.

I agree that mimics should bump-break mirrors, and think that they should if the end result of their move would have been a bump-break (Beethro moves diagonally, mimic moves orthogonally). However, mimics should only stab forward if Beethro's move causes them to desire to move forward, but there's a non-movable mirror in their way.

I think the bump-break check should be fourth. The mimic asks:

1. Can I move in exactly the same direction that guy in yellow did?
2. Can I move in the vertical portion of that direction? (Ignore if ordinal)
3. Can I move in the horizontal portion of that direction? (Ignore if ordinal)
4. Is there a non-movable mirror that caused me to fail at least one of the 3 checks? If so, and if my sword is on it, let me bump-break it.

I know you know the code is much more complex than that, but that's how I think mimics should think.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 02-11-2008 01:08 AM]
02-11-2008 at 01:01 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
But the mimic exactly duplicates Beethro's actions. If Beethro bumps into a wall, the mimic acts as if it too bumped into a wall. When a mimic attempts to run into a wall, it doesn't bump the same way Beethro does - it just can't move in that direction because there's a wall there (not for lack of trying).

The logic makes sense, IMHO.
02-11-2008 at 01:23 AM
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Sillyman
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Yeah, I imagine the mimic bumping empty space when Beethro bumps a wall. If something responds to a mimic bump, then it will activate even if Beethro could not move.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 02-11-2008 06:05 AM]
02-11-2008 at 06:04 AM
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mrimer
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Thanks for everyone's input into the above discussion. I'm going to keep 3.1.1 mimic behavior as-is. If something is clearly broken, it can be fixed, but this appears to a situation where something feels right to some people and not to others. Changing this either way won't please everyone, but I personally think it's better the way it is now w.r.t. mirrors than it was in 3.0, so I'll keep it this way unless it turns out something more serious was overlooked by everyone.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 02-28-2008 09:52 PM]
02-28-2008 at 09:51 PM
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JoMax
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icon Re: Mimic behavior (+1)  
As a result of the changes in builds 55/56 (and above) the behaviour of
KPVIIID3 Castle - Ninth Floor 1S:1W
has now changed - it is not possible to use diagonal movement without breaking the mirrors, but the room is still solvable. It just breaks several demos.

The mimics are unable to move but still break the mirrors as if they had.........

Sorry only just discovered it while trying to answer a H&S query.

[Last edited by JoMax at 05-02-2008 08:04 PM]
05-02-2008 at 07:47 PM
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