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It's been quite a long time since my previous hold - Chaco's Hold. This hold is made in the same spirit, but with a somewhat different implementation.

Some notes before you start:

- This hold caters to optimization a bit more than Chaco's Hold did. There are some choices you can make in some rooms, and hopefully optimization should be more interesting now than just eliminating wall bumps and pit/water gasps.

- Chaco's Hold used only roaches and rock golems. This is not true here.

- I've tried to focus more on the lynchpin sort of puzzle than the "okay, will THIS APPROACH work?!? Aaaargh!" type.

- That's not to say the puzzles aren't difficult this time around. Oh, ho ho ho.

- Overall, just have fun with this hold. I tried to build this hold so you can have fun with it.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Hoo boy. It's been a while since I wrote that description.

I'd like to thank jbluestein and Syntax for doing a whole lot of testing with this hold. Boyblue and Ezlo also pointed out some very helpful things. There were a lot of people who helped out while the hold was in Architecture, and I'm glad the community did this.

Now, have fun with this. I think this is a pretty nice hold, but I'd love to have some feedback, particularly from those attempting to optimize these rooms.

P.S. jbluestein, I pushed the button

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-27-2007 09:32 PM]

jbluestein
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I think this is an excellent hold. Chaco has created some real puzzles with visually appealing rooms and just general fun.

OK, it has a couple of rooms that I don't like. I tried to decide how much to let that affect the rating, but ultimately this hold is too much fun.

So I'm giving it a 10 for fun, and 6.5 brains of difficulty.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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I'm usually not too bad at puzzle holds, but this really got me on numerous occasions. The difficulty curve is excellent and the puzzles are all original. In my opinio, this really is the first hold which displays what is possible by combining various groups of DROD 3.0 elements rather than focusing on just the quirks of a one.

Utterly enjoyed it, and I hope you all do too. I also jbluestein's 6.5 difficulty is a typo

10 fun, 8 difficulty.

Syntax
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VIPCOOL wrote:
I'm suprised how long it took for the HA's to review this hold

Erm... because it was *hard*

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[Last edited by Syntax at 09-27-2007 09:50 PM]

Ezlo
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Since I haven't beaten it yet, I will refrain from voting, but I will reiterate that this is a superb hold well worth your time.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

Briareos
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Syntax wrote:

VIPCOOL wrote:
I'm suprised how long it took for the HA's to review this hold

Erm... because it was *hard*

Right. I'm afraid I gave up somewhere in the middle...

np: Contriva - Deceiving Trace (If You Had Stayed...)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Syntax
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Yeah it took me a while as I had to start from scratch but it was well worth it. Rushed the last 3 levels so it could get pushed through but I finished it so it's completable - definitely in 3.1 and I'm sure in 3.0 too.

Chaco
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I don't recommend this being your first introduction to TCB elements - first of all it spoils a lot of them, and second of all there are a lot of specialized situations (although nothing that a 3.1 upgrade would break)

In particular, Fifth Level assumes you already know how briars work.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-27-2007 11:25 PM]

Ezlo
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I'm sorry to say, but I think I found a backtracking bug.

Sence descended: The Entrance



____________________________
Call me Citrus.

jbluestein
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Syntax wrote:
Utterly enjoyed it, and I hope you all do too. I also jbluestein's 6.5 difficulty is a typo

10 fun, 8 difficulty.

I stand by my 6.5 difficulty rating, although of course YMMV. I loved the hold, but with the exception of the one room that you've already heard me complain about quite enough, thank you, I didn't have too many real head-scratching moments. Some of the puzzles were quite difficult, but I felt that overall the difficulty was, well...higher than KDD, but not inordinately so.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Ezlo
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Stair Bug! Go up a floor from Quarce Descended. It ends the hold.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

jbluestein
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Ezlo wrote:
Stair Bug! Go up a floor from Quarce Descended. It ends the hold.

That is...really annoying. Especially since I went over all of the stairs to make sure this wasn't a problem...guess I didn't do it with the most recent most final version, though, and something broke. Foo.

Thanks for catching it, Ezlo.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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While we're at it, apparently the stairs in Quarce South Once South Once East broke.

I'm aggravated mostly because we had a lot of stair bugs during final "ack this thing makes the hold unsolvable, fix it Chaco" stage.

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Remlin
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 181
Registered: 04-28-2005
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I'm wandering lost with no idea where to go next. I seem to have conquered every conquerable room I have access to. Did I miss a staircase somewhere?

On Quince Descended I have 1S1E unconquered, on Sence Descended, I have 2S and 3S unconquered. (Plus secret rooms, but those shouldn't matter.) I've got the blue gate dropped on the first four levels. What comes next?

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[Last edited by Remlin at 09-28-2007 11:16 PM]

Chaco
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Conquer Quince Descended Once South Once East.

How to get there? Is there anything you may have neglected in your exploration of this hold?

Note: actually, the hold is impossible to complete due to a staircase bug in Quarce South Twice South that ends the hold prematurely. We're working on it though.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-28-2007 11:50 PM]

Remlin
Level: Master Delver
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Registered: 04-28-2005
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I don't know how to read your message. Is there someplace I can go now, or am I waiting for an update?

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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There is a second staircase in Once Descended: Quarce South that descends through several levels to eventually reach Quince South Once South Once East.

However, one of the rooms that this shaft travels through is broken at the moment, so the answer is "you are waiting for an update".

EDIT:

And now, if I'm not mistaken, the update should have arrived.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-29-2007 01:58 AM]

Ezlo
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Okay, it is master-able. Very nice hold, much improved from the alpha I saw. I very much like your style Chaco, keep on building!

10 with 7 brains.

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Call me Citrus.

Stephen4Louise
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I'm a bit lost at the minute...

I have two red rooms I can see, but not reach, Quince Descended 1S1E and Sence Descended 3S (blocked by builders). I've been all the way back to the start, but I can't find the right way.
Can someone nudge me in the right direction?

Steve.

jbluestein
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Stephen4Louise wrote:
I'm a bit lost at the minute...

I have two red rooms I can see, but not reach, Quince Descended 1S1E and Sence Descended 3S (blocked by builders). I've been all the way back to the start, but I can't find the right way.
Can someone nudge me in the right direction?

To get to Quince Descended: 1S1E:


To get to Sence Descended: 3S:




Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Stephen4Louise
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Got them both. Thanks Josh.

Briareos
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VIPCOOL wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

×In Twice Decsended 2S1E where the Rock Golem opens the pressure plate, the scrolls are readable when the Rock Golem says that he can't read it. I'm not sure if that's intentional though since it gives away where the secret rooms are.

Well, it's an intended change as far as 3.1 is concerned - now every player role can read scrolls.

np: Burnt Friedman - Walk With Me (ft. Steve Spacek) (First Night Forever)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Syntax
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Besides, *knowing* where they are won't help you much in this hold. *Completing* them is a totally different story

Tahnan
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VIPCOOL wrote:
I know that was an intentional change in 3.1 . I was asking if Chaco new that when he built this hold.

Based on his comment up here, I'd suspect that change happened between when he submitted it to the Holds board and when it appeared; so, no.

On the other hand,

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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It was actually spotted in HA but it was decided that it should be left...

Chaco
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Syntax wrote:
Besides, *knowing* where they are won't help you much in this hold. *Completing* them is a totally different story

This is exactly how I rationalized giving said information to the player in the first place.

The fact that you have to work a bit less in 3.1 is unimportant to me.

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talund
Level: Delver
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This is the type of hold that makes me jealous that I did not create it. The puzzles are terrific and tough yet very enjoyable. Gives you that big "AHA" feeling many times as you figure out the solution.

Zarvok
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 09-29-2007
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This hold is great. I'm only on twice descended, but I'm loving it so far. The puzzles I've seen are very well done - they require hard thinking, but don't leave you feeling like there is some trick that you'll never get.

In particular, Twice descended, 2S 2E really wowed me:

Syntax
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I hold *any* room which educates the player as to how reptilia move in very high esteem...