Rheb
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1211
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Ok maybe I’m over reacting now, but he has been gone since some time around Christmas, at least he hasn’t responded to my invitation to test my beta hold. He hasn’t uploaded any scores lately and worst of all: I have kept the first scores I took from him!!!
Please michthro, come back and reclaim your first scores! The forum, especially TCB needs you!


____________________________
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kzc
Level: Master Delver

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I suspect his absence is related to this thread, which did get a little heated.

While I have nothing against the guy and I wouldn't be displeased to see him return, I think "the forum needs you" is a little strong. Perhaps "the high-score-competetive DROD community needs you".

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1913
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I think kzc's got it.

michthro is a great, intelligent guy and I hope to see him back playing DROD when and if he decides to.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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kzc wrote:
While I have nothing against the guy and I wouldn't be displeased to see him return, I think "the forum needs you" is a little strong. Perhaps "the high-score-competetive DROD community needs you".

Ditto that.

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
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Ditto.

Also, come back StuartK!

(and cancelling your Illumination Subscription doesn't count )

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1214
Registered: 01-08-2006
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Yeah, I noticed that myself, but I wasn't sure if I should say anything.

Michthro! Please come back! I never thought anything you said or was said to you in that thread was worth leaving over. You are a valued member here.

Pneh
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 154
Registered: 09-09-2006
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Come back michthro! You are a foremodel to pretty much everyone and/or everything on this forum!

It's things like this that makes you go "Is he/she still alive?".

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tokyokid
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 453
Registered: 05-06-2006
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michthro, I remember when you commented on my hold so nicely. I really appreciated that, so please come back! You're even missing TCB!

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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I too would be much pleased to see michthro come back.

noma
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1594
Registered: 11-22-2006
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Please do come back. As someone wrote to me just the other day in a PM, "It's a shame (he's not been around)... that guy truly was a genius."

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[Last edited by noma at 04-21-2007 07:00 PM]

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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I would like to reiterate my view that a fellow who has descended into what I might call, being a perhaps hyperbolic fellow, a mild form of /gibbering lunacy/, over what I, being a fellow who perhaps view things with less import than they should...


Actually, I will drop the faux-Tycho here and just point out the guy made a complete fool of himself over (What I'm pretty sure are) hilariously trivial points (These being score sniping and someone who rated Underground Civilization at a 2), and then left the forum.

I'm pretty sure he could apologize for being hilarious crazy, and probably make his way back here, but I get the feeling he's pretty much gone because he's decided we all h8 him 4eva because of the response he got from his second descent into this bizarre furious angry rage thing he did.

Besides these two strange events, is he an alright guy? Yeah. Are they remarkable enough that he's going to avoid this place from here on out? ...possible.

But man, you guys act like he just vanished for no reason.

Edit: Also, because making references to popular culture seems to shield me from the consequences of being a jerk--

TETSUOOO and/or KANEEDAAAA

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 04-22-2007 11:24 AM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

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I just want to point out that I don't agree at all with what you're saying Banjooie. People in general care about lots of things which are... ... really shallow. To state that something you spend a huge amount of time on, and apreciate greatly shouldn't be important to you just seems plain dumb to me.

Anyway... People do care greatly when they think a judge has made a bad decision in soccer. People care greatly about the exterior of their cars. People care greatly over their clothes. People even care greatly over money. If someone steals say 50$ from me, why should I care that much? It's just a little less money to waste on something dumb which I really and truely don't need (like a computer game).

Personaly I think what people said to michthro was the worse case of rudness I have seen at this forum in the two years I have been here. He was expressing his opinions, and therefore people started to call him a jackass, and implying that he was obsessed.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-22-2007 11:42 AM]

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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Can we please just agree that it was a nasty discussion, and leave it at that? Please? Please!!!!!!!!

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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actually, I think if we're ever going to have the metadiscussion that was pretty much doomed to happen here, now is the time.


Again: I personally felt it was trivial and laughable. Apparently, so did a bunch of people who flipped out on him in the sniping thread. Your results may vary.

Whether or not it was really trivial, Michthro probably figures we'll never forgive him or whatever, or that he doesn't want to come back.

Could objectively or something these things be important? For the sake fo argument, we'll say sure. That I'm being really dumb by not viewing these things as important--my feelings are really irrelevant: Michthro felt they were, our actions said we didn't feel that way, he left.

Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
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Has no-one noticed the irony, or illogic, of asking someone to come back to join a forum - by posting on that very forum? But anyway - come back, Michthro, all is forgiven. (I don't even know what you're supposed have done, or not done).

____________________________
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My Holds and Levels:

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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Banjooie wrote:
actually, I think if we're ever going to have the metadiscussion that was pretty much doomed to happen here, now is the time.


Again: I personally felt it was trivial and laughable. Apparently, so did a bunch of people who flipped out on him in the sniping thread. Your results may vary.

Whether or not it was really trivial, Michthro probably figures we'll never forgive him or whatever, or that he doesn't want to come back.

Could objectively or something these things be important? For the sake fo argument, we'll say sure. That I'm being really dumb by not viewing these things as important--my feelings are really irrelevant: Michthro felt they were, our actions said we didn't feel that way, he left.

I don't really think this is about us forgiving him. I think it's about him forgiving, or at least tolerating, those that called him a jackass. Or who are calling him a "mildly gibbering lunatic". Really, Banjooie. If you think that way that's okay, but to say it I find extremly rude and offensive. Also: I don't see any need whatsoever for saying so in this thread. It just felt provocative.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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actually, most of my point was that my opinion (Ie, that it was terrifying honestly to see him to do this) was actually rather irrelevant, and rather that regardless of who's right or wrong here, he's pretty much given up the ghost on this one.

even if you were to hinge upon my 'gibbering lunacy' remark, you'd have to note that I speak of it as gibbering lunacy because it is so inherently opposite to /everything else he's done/, which is why it's remarkable.

I mean like 90% of the time he's perfectly okay and honestly a cool guy except for two threads and it's frankly utterly mystifying to me.

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
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It's michthro's decision to make. And yes, to me it is an odd decision, but I'm not going to clamor for a return, or for him to stay away.

I just think it's weird that the best Smiter has chosen to retire, while at peak form. There's something to be said for going out on top...but with a style like this, you're just going to go back down after a while.

Though I don't think anybody will ever catch his Avg points or Avg rank.

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Elfstone
Level: Smitemaster

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May I pour oil on the waters before they become any more troubled? Jacob is right, if michthro is no longer visiting the forums he will not see any messages within the forums asking him to come back. It’s maybe just as well that he isn’t reading this thread at least; I doubt if it would achieve it’s expressed intent. Forgive me if this seems tactless, but I can’t help feeling that dragging up the subject matter which caused the rift is not going to be helpful.

In a situation where someone has been hurt, there is no point whatever in saying something along the lines of “ you should not have let it get to you” - the damage is done. Things, events, comments, situations which one individual will gloss over or skate round, will cause a different person real distress. There are times when views just oppose each other and no one view is the only ‘right’ view, and it is better if that can be accepted calmly. It is perfectly possible to respect another’s view, and his right to hold that view, without agreeing with it.

I would very much like to see michthro come back. He was very kind to me and gave very generously of his time and expertise when I lost all my holds. He seemed to me, in the time that I ‘knew’ him, to be the kind of person we would want to have as a regular contributor here. If michthro has been hurt or deeply offended by something here, then he may need time to recover. I suspect that, if he does come back to the Forums, it will not be with much trumpeting, but quietly, unobtrusively and, if that is the case, we should respect his views and make his arrival as easy as possible.

____________________________
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KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
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Elfstone wrote:It is perfectly possible to respect another’s view, and his right to hold that view, without agreeing with it.

Exactly. Michthro could have expressed his opinion without claiming it was the only morally defensible one. He could have refrained from being condescenging and disdainful. He could have omitted the gratuitous persoanal insults. He chose not to. Consider the following passage directed to me:

michthro wrote:
You're the one who simply doesn't want to admit that it is wrong. I admit my mistakes, and I can tell right from wrong. Make a start by working on at least one of those areas.

The last line there completely crosse the line; it's far worse than simply calling someone a name.

Look, michtrho did a lot of good for the community and it would be good to see him back. But, let's not canonize him. He was out of line and insulted a lot of people. No one claimed he was a jackass in general, but it was a good description of this behavior in that particular thread.

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
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KevG wrote:

Elfstone wrote:It is perfectly possible to respect another’s view, and his right to hold that view, without agreeing with it.

Exactly. Michthro could have expressed his opinion without claiming it was the only morally defensible one. He could have refrained from being condescenging and disdainful. He could have omitted the gratuitous persoanal insults. He chose not to. Consider the following passage directed to me:

michthro wrote:
You're the one who simply doesn't want to admit that it is wrong. I admit my mistakes, and I can tell right from wrong. Make a start by working on at least one of those areas.

The last line there completely crosse the line; it's far worse than simply calling someone a name.

Look, michtrho did a lot of good for the community and it would be good to see him back. But, let's not canonize him. He was out of line and insulted a lot of people. No one claimed he was a jackass in general, but it was a good description of this behavior in that particular thread.

When I saw the attacks made on Michthro in public over this issue - and the private ones that he shared with me - I was absolutely ashamed to be a part of this community. Maybe he went over the line, but only after several people went WAY over the line attacking him. I bear absolutely zero grudge against him, and wish he would come back here.

As Blondbeard said, it's not in any way about us forgiving him. He can't forgive many people here, and I certainly don't blame him at all. People were quite cruel.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
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Schik wrote:
When I saw the attacks made on Michthro in public over this issue - and the private ones that he shared with me - I was absolutely ashamed to be a part of this community. Maybe he went over the line, but only after several people went WAY over the line attacking him. I bear absolutely zero grudge against him, and wish he would come back here.

As Blondbeard said, it's not in any way about us forgiving him. He can't forgive many people here, and I certainly don't blame him at all. People were quite cruel.

I hate to contribute to the pot-stirring here, but I have to say I didn't see it that way at all. What I saw was Michthro calling people cheaters, thieves, and plagiarists over the utterly insignificant issue of high scores on a puzzle game. As I recall the timeline, that was what caused a few people to overreact with strongly worded remarks, not the other way around. Michthro's protestations aside, it's very clear that his ego was wrapped up in his #1 position, and it seems to me that made him overly touchy in threads such as the one mentioned.

Having said that, it's also pretty clear the positives Michthro brought to the forum outweighed the negatives. As I said above, I wouldn't be displeased to see him return.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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I don't know what the private attacks were - and I didn't even know they existed until Schik's post - but my memory of the events is the same as kzc (and I just reread the relevant threads which seem to confirm this). At least as far as the public discourse went, Michthro was the first to start personal attacks - albeit relatively mild ones - and people got offended and went overboard in their responses (though it may be that people were attacking him privately at the time, again, I don't know.)

I'm not justifying anyone's behavior here - including myself, because while I don't think I engaged in personal attacks I certainly posted stuff that wasn't helping - and people responding to Michthro went far beyond what was appropriate, but Michthro certainly has his fair share of the blame for what happened. While I have a huge amount of respect for him - and would be delighted if he returned - he was not a graceful debater, either in the sniping debate or in previous ones, and there were plenty of people who already had hard feelings towards him at the time this debate started.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

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[Last edited by eytanz at 04-23-2007 05:26 AM]

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
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I'd just like to say that as someone on way the opposite side of the arguement, I'd be all for him coming back. I'm too to say much else, and I feel some of his reactions to others were excessive, but I don't think its worth leaving over, and I don't think he should be gone.

____________________________
"Now I will repeatedly apply the happy-face rule"

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
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kzc wrote:
I hate to contribute to the pot-stirring here, but I have to say I didn't see it that way at all. What I saw was Michthro calling people cheaters, thieves, and plagiarists over the utterly insignificant issue of high scores on a puzzle game. As I recall the timeline, that was what caused a few people to overreact with strongly worded remarks, not the other way around. Michthro's protestations aside, it's very clear that his ego was wrapped up in his #1 position, and it seems to me that made him overly touchy in threads such as the one mentioned.

From what he said, again in public and private, I don't think it had anything to do with ego. I think what made him touchy was people accusing him of having a huge ego.

I mean... I hold pretty much the same position that Michthro did - I think sniping is crap, and I'd rather reward original thought over copying. I have few #1s, and am close to dropping out of the top 20 if I haven't already. So do I have a huge ego too? Because I have the same opinion that michthro did. Or does he only have the huge ego because he had the most #1s?

I could just as easily say that "it's very clear that" those who disagreed with michthro did so because they were jealous of his skills.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
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Hmm, I re-read that thread and have a few points:

It was not that bad. Sure, it was a heated argument with people feeling strongly on both sides, but on any other forum it would quickly devolve into a raging flamefest. Even though there were a few personal attacks, in my opinion, everyone handled it rather nicely (unless there were really gross PMs, dunno about that).

Not a martyr. While michthro got his share of hate, like just about everyone who posted and made themselves a target, he was dishing damage just as much as he was receiving it. Nevertheless, the other people involved are still on the forums. He didn't really explain why he left, maybe there were some other reasons...

Personally, while I was certainly on the other side in that argument, it was nothing against michthro or anyone else involved. People don't have to share my views on everything to be a great community I'm proud to be part of.

We'll miss him. He was OK.

____________________________
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Paint the sky in crimson red!

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
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Schik wrote:
From what he said, again in public and private, I don't think it had anything to do with ego. I think what made him touchy was people accusing him of having a huge ego.

I mean... I hold pretty much the same position that Michthro did - I think sniping is crap, and I'd rather reward original thought over copying. I have few #1s, and am close to dropping out of the top 20 if I haven't already. So do I have a huge ego too? Because I have the same opinion that michthro did. Or does he only have the huge ego because he had the most #1s?

Firstly, I didn't say he had a huge ego; I said his ego was wrapped up in his position on the score board. One can have a moderate ego and still feel that it's tied to some particular status indicator.
Since you asked, the most obvious evidence is his behavior in the sniping thread. Only someone who placed a great deal of value on maintaining his position would describe sniping as "cheating", "theft"(!), or "plagiarism". Those terms usually apply when talking about something with real value, such as money or academic credentials. It's just nuts to apply them to high scores on a game - unless your sense of self-worth is all tied up in them.
If my purpose were to bash the guy I could probably find a lot more examples.

I could just as easily say that "it's very clear that" those who disagreed with michthro did so because they were jealous of his skills.

You could, but there's little evidence of it. I'm sure some people among those who chase scores are probably at least a little envious, but you don't see anyone reacting the same way to Rabscuttle or Fratropea or Syntax or any of the other strong optimizers.

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[Last edited by kzc at 04-23-2007 11:40 AM]

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Since you asked, the most obvious evidence is his behavior in the sniping thread. Only someone who placed a great deal of value on maintaining his position would describe sniping as "cheating", "theft"(!), or "plagiarism". Those terms usually apply when talking about something with real value, such as money or academic credentials. It's just nuts to apply them to high scores on a game - unless your sense of self-worth is all tied up in them.

I'm sure he was proud of his scores, but I don't think that means his self-worth was tied to his score. No, copying high scores isn't technically "cheating" - there's no explicit rule written down anywhere saying that you can't do it. We tried to do two things at once - allow people to compete and allow people to have fun watching others' demos. Unfortunately, those two things conflict.

I could just as easily say that "it's very clear that" those who disagreed with michthro did so because they were jealous of his skills.

You could, but there's little evidence of it.

And my point was that I think there's little evidence that michthro defended his position because of ego. I could say people were jealous, but I won't. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt. It's too bad that so few people did the same for michthro, and instead assumed the worst of him.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Can I just say that sniping is like abortion? Reasonable people can disagree reasonably, it's very difficult to find a compromise, and it sucks whenever it's brought up.

Amen.

Edit: And I just noticed that my rank points are the first 4 non-zero terms of the standard Fibonacci sequence. Whoo!

____________________________

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 04-23-2007 12:46 PM]

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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zex20913 wrote:
Can I just say that sniping is like abortion? Reasonable people can disagree reasonably, it's very difficult to find a compromise, and it sucks whenever it's brought up.

Amen.

Indeed.