AtkinsSJ
Level: Master Delver

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Sorry, I think I gave the wrong meaning to my post. I didn't mean to rush, or anything.

NiroZ
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Concerning briars, I think the reason that I don't like them is simply because they cover way too much area, way too quickly. Perhaps if oremites or some other floor type would not allow briars to grow over them(but allow beethro), and there was some way of doubling the grow time, I'd be happier with them, but as it is they are just overkill.

The other element I hate is

zex20913
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I bet pit seeps will be in 4.0.

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halyavin
Level: Delver
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Space worms (from general theory of relativity) which tear you to pieces by gravity .

Blondbeard
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Right now I hate being unable to move diagonaly around quorners when on rafts and those pit floating things. It feels like a diffrence put in there just to be diffrent, and I have a reflex to move diagonaly around quorners which makes rafts a bit anoying.

Briareos
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Blondbeard wrote:
It feels like a diffrence put in there just to be diffrent, and I have a reflex to move diagonaly around quorners which makes rafts a bit annoying.

Seems logical though - those rafts are a full tile in size and thus can't just slide across edges.

But that doesn't really explain why it gets stuck on monsters as well...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Oneiromancer
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Briareos is correct in why they don't move diagonally around corners. And while they do get blocked by water creatures, they should go under flying creatures.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Fafnir
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Maybe they can't go around water creatures because if they tried, the water creatures would have the chance to get onto the raft? After that, they'd probably be too close to be sworded. I'm guessing, but it seems like a plausible explanation.

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Absolute stupidity
Kills absolutely.

Blondbeard
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I'm just saying I find it disturbing. And everything don't have to make scientific sense. Like when Beethro jumps diagonally past a monster his sword really ought to cleave the monster in half, but the monster is totally unharmed by this.

captainzakku
Level: Delver
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I really haven't gotten too far into the game, and have found some really fun puzzles, but I have also run into possibly one of the more annoying rooms I've ever played. First off I think there is tremendous potential for heat tiles, and it solves the "place the mimic to hit this orb, then face him that way and solve the room without turning" type puzzles. Now you could just put heat tiles at the entrance, and skip the whole mimic/orb thing.

However... and I think Larrymurk will back me up on this... (spoiler)


Anyway, just my two cents, feel free to disagree.

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"A problem worthy of attack, proves its worth by fighting back." Paul Erdös

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[Last edited by captainzakku at 04-05-2007 03:19 PM]

Krishh
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The problem I have with rafts not moving through diagonal corners (besides the fact that I constantly try to by force of habit) is that on such corners the ground tile is half water, which, while making pools look much nicer than a jagged edge would, also makes it look like the raft should be able to pass through the tile without hitting the ground.

Ezlo
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Edit: Sorry, I thought this was LOVE about TCB.


I don't like how my favorite new elelment was only in two levels.

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Call me Citrus.

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 04-05-2007 08:29 PM]

Thy Dungeonman
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My problem with rafts?
Well, at first I thought they'd be cool.
The problem is that they aren't. THEY DON'T TRANSPORT THE STUFF ON THEM. Not even your clones or the mirror thing. They'll plop in the water. I mean, that's stupid. It makes no physical sense whatsoever, and destroys a lot of puzzle possibillity. I was totally looking forward to making a puzzle where you had to transport orbs and tokens around on the rafts. And why do halph and the clones fall in the water and die on the raft while monsters make the raft immoble?

Even worse is if you put an obstacle on them. Once that's in the water, the platform treats it like a PHYSICAL WALL.

Also, in the last game, they slayer was smart. He could open doors. He didn't have to worry about monsters.

In this game he's an idiot. He'll wait on a hot tile for his whisp to grow until he dies - couldn't he, like, just shuffle or fidn a way off and then let the whisp grow? He can't manuever platforms either, and will just sit there and let an adder eat him. Wasn't he supposed to be Beethro's greatest nemesis?

Finally, I have a problem with the cloaked monsters (Forget their names, they're the ones with beams). Mainly because their beams will freeze themselves when reflected at them, but will not freeze each other. That's silly. And is there really a use for the mirrors besides freezing them and reflect eye's lines of sight?

I just feel like some of the interactions could've been handled better.

eytanz
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Thy Dungeonman wrote:

Even worse is if you put an obstacle on them. Once that's in the water, the platform treats it like a PHYSICAL WALL.

Also, in the last game, they slayer was smart. He could open doors. He didn't have to worry about monsters.

In this game he's an idiot. He'll wait on a hot tile for his whisp to grow until he dies - couldn't he, like, just shuffle or fidn a way off and then let the whisp grow? He can't manuever platforms either, and will just sit there and let an adder eat him. Wasn't he supposed to be Beethro's greatest nemesis?

No. He's dead. The guys Beethro faces in TCB aren't full slayers. This is dealt with in the story.

(As far as gameplay goes, yes, the old slayer's AI isn't updated to properly deal with all the TCB elements. I can see why you'd want that for user holds, but the slayer AI requires major work for Mike and it wasn't necessary from the TCB plot which takes priority).

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Oneiromancer
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Thy Dungeonman wrote:
Also, in the last game, they slayer was smart. He could open doors. He didn't have to worry about monsters.

Most of the slayers in TCB are actually not "graduated" yet...they are meant to be n00bs. Thus they can be killed "easily", unlike the Slayer in JtRH who was not meant to be killed until the very end, so he seemed invincible.

As for your other stuff...well, I don't really feel the need to defend TCB, but now I'm not sure if you are basing your opinions on the actual TCB hold or just playing around in the editor, because I thought that the mirrors and platforms were quite well developed in terms of interactions. Maybe I'm too close to it to tell. But I could understand someone just fooling around in the editor not seeing all the possibilities.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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I should point out that in a lot of the interactions, there is no clear-cut solution; rather, there's different possibilities, each of which enables some puzzles and disables others. Different people find different things intuitive, sometimes it's just necessary to make an arbitrary choice, and it's impossible to please everyone.

Which doesn't mean you shouldn't complain about choices you dislike - you should certainly feel free to do that. But remember that it's likely that there was a reason for the way things are, rather than just laziness or shortsidedness on the part of the dev team, even if the reason was "we considered both options and decided that neither is perfect so we chose the one that we came up with puzzles for first".

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Sillyman
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My problem with rafts?
Well, at first I thought they'd be cool.
The problem is that they aren't. THEY DON'T TRANSPORT THE STUFF ON THEM. Not even your clones or the mirror thing.

Well, they do transport anything mobile. Including mirrors or clones, if the raft is big enough. And clones can even push platforms like beethro, whether on water or land. However, rafts do not move the items on them themselves, the clone/mirror/monster has to keep up with them.

I was totally looking forward to making a puzzle where you had to transport orbs and tokens around on the rafts.
Orbs cannot move. Neither can tokens. Thus the platform cannot carry them.

And why do Halph and the clones fall in the water and die on the raft while monsters make the raft immobile?

Now you're confusing me. If you want Halph to stay on a platform, you have to make him follow you, or have him move it by himself.

Even worse is if you put an obstacle on them. Once that's in the water, the platform treats it like a PHYSICAL WALL.

Intentional. Again, Obstacles cannot move. They are also walls. Why do you have a problem with this?

Also, in the last game, they slayer was smart. He could open doors. He didn't have to worry about monsters.
Yes. He was smart, and still uses the same AI.

In this game he's an idiot. He'll wait on a hot tile for his wisp to grow until he dies - couldn't he, like, just shuffle or find a way off and then let the wisp grow? He can't maneuver platforms either, and will just sit there and let an adder eat him. Wasn't he supposed to be Beethro's greatest nemesis?
He was in the last game. And the AI hasn't changed, it just hasn't been improved upon to take into account the new elements. He doesn't know about hot tiles or adders or platforms. He'll just consider them normal floor/serpent, and treat them likewise.

Finally, I have a problem with the cloaked monsters (Forget their names, they're the ones with beams). Mainly because their beams will freeze themselves when reflected at them, but will not freeze each other. That's silly. And is there really a use for the mirrors besides freezing them and reflect eye's lines of sight?
The atumlich. Behavior similar to what you describe with the mirrors is found in most other games as well. The mirrors somehow make the beams deadly to the atumlich. Atumlich. And the mirrors have all sorts of uses! Reflecting beams, holding down pressure plates, being smashable, you can even use them as a portable wall! They also have other puzzle potential, especially when combined with other elements, like platforms. Just carry that mirror along with your sword...

I just feel like some of the interactions could've been handled better.
They are fine. What are you talking about?

Sorry for the counter-rant.

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coppro
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Thy Dungeonman wrote:
And why do halph and the clones fall in the water and die on the raft while monsters make the raft immoble?

Only large monsters (serpents or rock giants) or tarstuff make the platform immobile. Roaches, goblins, aumtlich, whatever fall in just like anything else.

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[Last edited by coppro at 04-05-2007 08:53 PM]

Thy Dungeonman
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I sounded harsher than I meant to be. I'll explain some of my problems with the interactions later.

zex20913
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Sillyman! It's Aumtlich. Aumtlich. Not Atumlich. Aumtlich.

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Sillyman
Level: Smiter

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Oh. Whoops. Aumtlich. That's fun to say. Aumtlich. Say it with me. Aumtlich. Aumtlich.

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stigant
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I have a question (not a criticism, but an inquiry) about mirrors. I was hoping that they would change the direction of beams (say by 90 degrees rather than 180 degrees). I'm sure this option was explored. Can you explain why the 180 option was chosen over the 90 option which seems to open up a lot of possibilities without closing any doors?

BTW, thank god for

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Progress Quest Progress

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[Last edited by stigant at 04-05-2007 09:27 PM]

Briareos
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Thy Dungeonman wrote:
I sounded harsher than I meant to be. I'll explain some of my problems with the interactions later.

Whoa there... for a second I had really thought that the Neverwinter Nights 2 forum had spilled over here...

np: The Postal Service - This Place Is A Prison (Give Up)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Oneiromancer
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stigant wrote:
I have a question (not a criticism, but an inquiry) about mirrors. I was hoping that they would change the direction of beams (say by 90 degrees rather than 180 degrees). I'm sure this option was explored. Can you explain why the 180 option was chosen over the 90 option which seems to open up a lot of possibilities without closing any doors?

Heh...to be honest, the option wasn't explored. Oh, I know why. Mirrors were originally developed back in 2.0 along with the Aumtlich (called zombies back then). The mirrors were not movable and we decided not to include the zombies, but when we came back to the elements we still considered Aumtlich first, and for them the entire point was to reflect back at them and freeze them. Maybe in the future a new type of mirror could be introduced, only different in the way it reflects, but that's why the current one is the way it is.

BTW, thank god for

Click here to view the secret text

×the transparent tar button revealing evil eye LOS.... Couldn't have made it past that one room (you know which one I'm talking about) without it.

I wouldn't have made that room without that particular token, trust me on that! Actually, you could be talking about one of two rooms, but either one, yeah.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 04-05-2007 10:21 PM]

zex20913
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I think I broke the second room you're talking about, Neil. Not certain, but probable. Check my demos for that which you're thinking of.

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Oneiromancer
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That might be a while, Tim, as I pretty much need to start the hold over as my demos are all from a very old version that I don't even want to try to import into the full version. I'll be checking them out eventually.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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You can just import a fresh version of the Caravelteam player - it won't have any demos and will allow you to look at demos in the editor.

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Oneiromancer
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Allrighty, good idea.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Chaco
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Hey, I actually found a problem with TCB!

Basically, I go through all of the second part, and finish HV.

I reappear in HA.

I decide to go back up through MO and those other levels back to KD to see if anything changed since my escape sequence...

and I get stuck in D because going into the GB and solving that puzzle again doesn't net me a disguise anymore, so I can't go to KDND, nor can I re-enter the house of BG because there's no staircase or entrance square.

So, I have to restore!

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-05-2007 10:44 PM]

zonhin
Level: Delver

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Chaco, I laughed out loud. If I had any mod points I'd mod you up.

____________________________
I looked at the world through apple eyes
And cut myself a slice of sunshine pie
I danced with the peanut butterflies
Till time went and told me to say hello but wave goodbye