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The spitemaster
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I have found in the past few months that we are gaining a large amount of new people. Spam as some, but others are not following the same code as is expected of people. Incomplete thoughts, grammar and spelling lacking, and non-existing respect for the way things were set up. This is not asd wide spread a I have writen, but the one thing that bugs me is the people in the conversation act like its normal.

Is there any way we make new people adhere to our old standards?

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12-20-2006 at 08:20 PM
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ErikH2000
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Well, there's things that are against the forum rules. Let moderators deal with those things, or if you think the mods are missing something then send an e-mail to moderators@caravelgames.com. I suppose mentioning the problem publicly without being too overbearing about it is okay, but in the end, you gotta let the moderators play judge and enforcer.

Then there's the more subtle problems which seem to be what you are talking about. Not breaking any rules, but generally dragging down the quality of communication on the forum. Basically, here's what you can do about these, in order of preference:

* You can try to lead by example and make good posts.
* You can choose to ignore their posts.
* You can mod people down if you want.
* You can e-mail moderators and say this person is really annoying. That doesn't guarantee we will do anything about it, though.

People tend to pick up on these cues over time. Or sometimes they just go away after a while because they are bored or demoralized.

Avoid confronting people directly, i.e. "You always make one line posts that don't contribute anything!" This tends to start arguments about the behavior which is somehow intensely interesting for about 2 or 3 people, and a boring waste of bytes for everyone else.

-Erik

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12-20-2006 at 09:13 PM
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Beef Row
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The spitemaster wrote:
I have found in the past few months that we are gaining a large amount of new people. Spam as some, but others are not following the same code as is expected of people. Incomplete thoughts, grammar and spelling lacking, and non-existing respect for the way things were set up. This is not asd wide spread a I have writen, but the one thing that bugs me is the people in the conversation act like its normal.

Is there any way we make new people adhere to our old standards?

Well, kind and gentle correction may be useful. For example, I could suggest to someone who wrote: "Incomplete thoughts, grammar and spelling lacking, and non-existing respect for the way things were set up."

That a more grammatical and coherent sentence would be:
"Some new members aren't completing their thoughts, have poor grammar and spelling, and show no respect for the way the forum was set up."

But seriously, I don't think everyone on the forum should be held to the same level of English proficiency, considering we have many members who are very young, or do not speak English natively. I wouldn't want to see this forum become a judgemental place on lines of age or origin.

So help where you can. Politely telling someone their ideas would be more clear if they made specific corrections is great. Trying to force everyone to immediately comply to something that may be beyond their current abilities is not.

Similarly, if someone posts on the wrong board, don't get angry, simply explain why it isn't the right board and which board would be more fitting. I don't think what we're seeing is lack of respect. New members lack knowledge of the exact workings of the forum. This knowledge comes with time, and usually doesn't take very long.

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12-20-2006 at 09:20 PM
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The spitemaster
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I am properly admonished.

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12-20-2006 at 09:29 PM
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Beef Row
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The spitemaster wrote:
I am properly admonished.

Eh, it happens. No harm done. Much better to start a thread like this than take out frustration on new posters. And maybe now its easier to see that no one TRIES to make a post with poor grammar or spelling. Everyone posts to the best of their abilities.

Except spammers, of course. But replying to a spammer just moves the spam to the top of the board. So thats entirely for the mods.

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[Last edited by Beef Row at 12-20-2006 09:39 PM : spelling correction, of course.]
12-20-2006 at 09:39 PM
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Alneyan
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Beef Row wrote:
But seriously, I don't think everyone on the forum should be held to the same level of English proficiency, considering we have many members who are very young, or do not speak English natively.

I absolutely cannot resist adding another category for apostrophe-haters. I don't think anything else (*) annoys me quite as much as those classical mix-ups: its/it's, they're/their, you're/your, etc.

(* : Okay, a serious contender is the grating confusion between forms like "aimer" and "aimé" in French and assorted conjugations glitches. Still, we weren't dealing with French grammar here.)
12-20-2006 at 09:44 PM
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Tombot
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I only post if there is an actual reason to post. And even then I always make sure that I check spelling and so forth, I have to retain some level of standard for me to feel good posting. So hopefully I'm not a problem.

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12-20-2006 at 09:48 PM
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Jatopian
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I think it's precisely because we have forum members who don't speak English well that we should use it properly; it's more easily translated when we do.
Tombot wrote:
I only post if there is an actual reason to post. And even then I always make sure that I check spelling and so forth, I have to retain some level of standard for me to feel good posting. So hopefully I'm not a problem.
I think similarly.
That comma there should be a semicolon. :yes

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12-20-2006 at 11:31 PM
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Mattcrampy
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It's easy to tell the difference between poor English because it's a second language and poor English because you couldn't be bothered to be readable. Certainly, 'good English' will not a hard and fast rule, but I think that encouraging 'people' to keep to the standard is important and that's something we can all do.

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12-21-2006 at 12:11 AM
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NiroZ
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The spitemaster wrote:
I am properly admonished.
One of the biggest problems with new people coming to a forum is often not the fact that the new people come from the 'unwashed masses' than the fact that the existing people expect new people to arrive already washed, and the kinds of etticate required on that forum.

I don't really think that there really has been an influx of new people on this forum, rather that I have been here long enough to notice the new people, and because some older forumers have dropped of, often taking their unique 'spin' to the forum with them, the forum changes.
Thus, because it is a well known fact that us humans like to resist change, instead of seeing this as a continual growth cycle, we tend to blame the new people for bringing in their own 'spin' to the forum.

I don't think I will even profess to have a grammatical ability, and the majority of my spelling ability comes off my Firefox spellcheck function, therefore in no position to comment on that.
Hmmm, if the above text makes any sense, I will be very, very happy.
12-21-2006 at 01:41 AM
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Tahnan
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NiroZ wrote:
One of the biggest problems with new people coming to a forum is often not the fact that the new people come from the 'unwashed masses' than the fact that the existing people expect new people to arrive already washed, and the kinds of etticate required on that forum.

"Etiquette". (Sorry.)
12-21-2006 at 03:54 AM
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RoboBob3000
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Tahnan wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
One of the biggest problems with new people coming to a forum is often not the fact that the new people come from the 'unwashed masses' than the fact that the existing people expect new people to arrive already washed, and the kinds of etticate required on that forum.

"Etiquette". (Sorry.)

"Etiquette." (Sorry.)

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12-21-2006 at 05:28 AM
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Maurog
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Please note that people don't choose to be lacking in grammar, spelling and respect just because they want to annoy us. When anyone is first introduced to the internet, their writing style is shaped by the places they visit. If they happen to visit sites where "OMG URN00b PWNZORS!!!oneone" is a valid message, and we all know these are abundant, their writing style will be changed accordingly. Humans change to fit better into their environment. Hopefully, it also works for this site, and staying here will improve new people's writing style.

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12-21-2006 at 07:32 AM
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halyavin
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Maurog wrote:
Please note that people don't choose to be lacking in grammar, spelling and respect just because they want to annoy us. When anyone is first introduced to the internet, their writing style is shaped by the places they visit. If they happen to visit sites where "OMG URN00b PWNZORS!!!oneone" is a valid message, and we all know these are abundant, their writing style will be changed accordingly. Humans change to fit better into their environment. Hopefully, it also works for this site, and staying here will improve new people's writing style.
And may be you start to improve hold's authors writing style too? How I supposed to understand "shuddup" and others weird words if there is no such words in the dictionary?
12-21-2006 at 10:15 AM
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Banjooie
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Let's assume that there is a 10% chance that any given new person will be 'teh dumbz0rz' and gets all up in the o rly and the jesus christ it's a lion get in the car and doesn't know what the jazz is all about.

I say 10%, because I like living in a world where only a tenth of the internet does that but it doesn't really work like that but bear with me. It stands to reason, therefore, that approximately 10% of our population will do that, on account of mathematics working that way.

Now, if we start with, say, 50 regulars, and then we wind up with, say, 400, what do you think happens to the size of our 10% that doesn't know how to spell their words?

Yes, there you go. There have been and always will be idjits on any given forum, it's just that as DROD becomes more popular, we're going to get more people like that. There simply is no way to maintain quality of forum posters in a growing commmunity, unless you charge money for forum accounts, and even that isn't foolproof.

Terribly sorry.
12-21-2006 at 07:57 PM
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Maurog
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Funny that you say that, because I feel an overwhelming lack of internet memes on this forum. In fact, can someone please point me in the direction of the threads/posts that cause the latest increase in complaining? (Yeah, the complaining itself did not go unnoticed). I hear about spam, but apparently the mods get to that before me, the only thing that comes to mind is that one thread where a mod explicitly said he leaves it on purpose. I hear about immaturity, but where is all the l337spe4k and owls/lions/cats and the short useless posts (guess the next poster thread excluded)? I must be getting old and senile, because it looks as peaceful as ever, really.

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12-21-2006 at 08:12 PM
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Beef Row
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Maurog wrote:
Funny that you say that, because I feel an overwhelming lack of internet memes on this forum. In fact, can someone please point me in the direction of the threads/posts that cause the latest increase in complaining?

Ah, but thats what your missing... complaining about the newer members of a forum IS an internet meme! OMGWTF, likezz0rzz, didn't you get the memo?

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12-21-2006 at 08:20 PM
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ErikH2000
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Beef Row wrote:
Ah, but thats what your missing... complaining about the newer members of a forum IS an internet meme! OMGWTF, likezz0rzz, didn't you get the memo?
Yep. I honestly am more worried about people getting a little bored with the "pure" discussion related to DROD, contests, gaming, puzzles, and so on. And then instead introducing a lot of meta-discussion about things wrong with the forum/community and other manufactured dramas. People, if you are bored with DROD or the forum, just take a break and float off for a bit. We will still be here when you get back.

I'm not telling Spitemaster or anybody to get lost, or even characterizing his post as overdramatic. In general, I just wish people would be a little less eager to say XYZ is wrong or announce negative trends, when it's more about how they personally aren't as excited about DROD and the forum as they were previously. It happens, you know? Interest in any given thing will wax and wane, and over the long term, probably wanes more than waxes.

From my point of view, the forum is doing fine. Enthusiasm in general is probably down oh... 16.82% due to holidays and no new DROD releases in a while. But it's not a major problem. Suppose you drew a graph of the DROD lifeforce which is some hypothetical index measured by sales, press mentions, forum postings, new members, and confirmed DROD miracles. It would spike up at the major releases (DROD:AE, DROD:JtRH, but not really DROD:KDD), climb slowly for eight months or so and then descend slowly after that. TCB will be another spike in the graph and continue the pattern. We expect lulls between releases. The worst points are before the releases when the most time has passed without anything being released. I.e. right now.

So if I can sum it all up for you:

Don't be jumping on the meta-discussion bandwagon because you're bored.

-Erik

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12-21-2006 at 09:11 PM
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Chaco
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Maurog wrote:
Funny that you say that, because I feel an overwhelming lack of internet memes on this forum.

Smileys tend to become memes if they're used on several forums.

:blowup

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12-21-2006 at 09:13 PM
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Syntax
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Don't be jumping on the meta-discussion bandwagon because you're bored.
Couldn't agree more. There has been this tendency of late to pick up on a subject who's posts outnumber 10 or so and to read too much into it. I'd agree that boredom is probably the cause...

[EDIT]

And the spikes of which ErikH2000 is mentioning can be seen visually at the bottom of this page... Expect metatalk when deeper troughs occur ;)

[Last edited by Syntax at 12-22-2006 01:00 PM]
12-22-2006 at 12:57 PM
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Alneyan
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Syntax wrote:
There has been this tendency of late to pick up on a subject who's posts outnumber 10 or so and to read too much into it.

Let's give an example of meta-talk so that people will know what to watch out for. In the quoted sentence, Syntax can't get his syntax right: "who's" expands to "who is", which doesn't make much sense here. So, it seems the original poster wanted to use the word "whose"... though he might have had completely different intentions, of course. Free will and all that, you know.

This is meta-talk. This is bad. I guess you can see why.
12-22-2006 at 05:14 PM
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BDR
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Response 1: It's boring? ;)

Response 2: I think that's actually kind of tame. Worse metatalk would assume a position that made the post look bad and flame it for seeming to be what it wasn't, which would lead to a heated response (O:- Pun? I see no pun) and then possibly an argument.
12-22-2006 at 06:46 PM
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RoboBob3000
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This talk about meta-talk is meta-meta-talk.

This comment is meta-meta-meta-talk. I win.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 12-23-2006 03:18 AM]
12-23-2006 at 03:17 AM
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Briareos
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
This talk about meta-talk is meta-meta-talk.

This comment is meta-meta-meta-talk. I win.
Not if we meta-meta-meta-moderate you into Oblivion. Or Neverwinter Nights 2. :D

np: Pole - Paula (1)

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12-23-2006 at 09:28 AM
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Niccus
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icon Meta-meta-meta-post and meta-meta-post all at once, complete with self-reference (+1)  
RoboBob3000 wrote:
Tahnan wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
One of the biggest problems with new people coming to a forum is often not the fact that the new people come from the 'unwashed masses' than the fact that the existing people expect new people to arrive already washed, and the kinds of etticate required on that forum.
"Etiquette". (Sorry.)
"Etiquette." (Sorry.)
"'Etiquette.'" would be a misquoting of the original sentence. Depending on the grammar system being used, "'Etiquette'." can be invalid, but considering the context, "'Etiquette'." is the correct form.
...but then, considering the context once more, I believe that it's better to use "'etiquette'." instead of either "'Etiquette'." or "'Etiquette.'".
Unfortunately, I don't know the parentheses should be handled. If I have to guess, "'Etiquette' (Sorry)." should be the correct form...

That's enough of Grammar Nazism and Godwin's Law. I don't know how many "meta-"s would be tacked on before "talk" when referring to this post...

:frusty
12-23-2006 at 09:53 PM
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Tahnan
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Hey, I never metatalk I didn't like. And if ever a thread needed hijacking, it's this one.

Anyway, yes, I've been converted to the opinion that it's silly to put punctuation inside quotation marks if it doesn't belong there. The example from Geoff Pullum that convinced me:

(a) The first line of Richard III is "Now is the winter of our discontent."
(b) The first line of Richard III is "Now is the winter of our discontent".

Sentence (a) is essentially false. Richard III, for those who don't know, begins

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York; ...

(or "son of York" in some versions). Putting the period inside the quotes in (a) is terribly misleading: it suggests that the period is part of the original line, and that the play opens by saying that this, now, is the winter of our discontent. It does not; it opens by saying that, now, the sun of York makes the winter of our discontent into glorious summer, which is a very different sentiment.

So I now go with (b): put the period outside the quotes, and there's no question. Which is what I did with 'Etiquette', above; why I capitalized the E is...another matter entirely. (But I also stand by putting the parenthetical "Sorry" separately; it was an independent thought, as this is.)

I'm sorry, we weren't discussing anything important in this thread, were we?
12-24-2006 at 02:08 AM
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TripleM
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Ah, and if the first line was actually:
Now is the winter of our discontent.
Then you would say the first line is "Now is the winter of our discontent.".

And the line I just wrote above is "Then you would say the first line is "Now is the winter of our discontent.".".

(Anyway, I agree. I do a bit of proofreading of maths textbooks and wasn't quite sure whether you would write "The answer is 3!" or "The answer is 3!.")
12-24-2006 at 02:22 AM
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silver
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Both of the last two posts forgot the comma that goes before quotations :)

/me ducks and hides


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12-24-2006 at 02:58 AM
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Banjooie
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Because I like to be ironic

[Last edited by Banjooie at 12-24-2006 05:39 AM]
12-24-2006 at 05:38 AM
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Jatopian
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I can't believe I haven't posted this (warning: contains word which some persons arbitrarily label 'bad') yet...

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12-24-2006 at 05:52 PM
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