Ezlo
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I was playing a random flash game on a random flash website that was based around droping trapdoors. One feature they had that I thought might be beneficial to DROD is the fact that some trapdoors required you to step on and off them two or more times. I think if that was added it could breathe a little more life into the now stagnant trapdoor puzzle. I'm not sure how it would be visualized though. Any ideas?

Kwakstur
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Ezlo wrote:
I was playing a random flash game on a random flash website that was based around droping trapdoors. One feature they had that I thought might be beneficial to DROD is the fact that some trapdoors required you to step on and off them two or more times. I think if that was added it could breathe a little more life into the now stagnant trapdoor puzzle. I'm not sure how it would be visualized though. Any ideas?

As for it's visualization, I'll state the obvious: Put numbers on it, or give them colors based on numbers.

Oh, and I guess that, in the editor, you can use the rotate button to change how many steps it is (like using the rotate to change obstacle type)!

I do think that it may make some puzzles needlessly complicated, though. I like the idea, but I don't think it's worth the trouble to use.

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Chaco
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Or, to enter an area you can only visit once (like a "setup orb" room) all you'd have to do is put one two-step trapdoor at the entrance, instead of two one-step trapdoors.

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Kwakstur
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Chaco wrote:
Or, to enter an area you can only visit once (like a "setup orb" room) all you'd have to do is put one two-step trapdoor at the entrance, instead of two one-step trapdoors.

I guess this is a little off-topic, but the trapdoor won't stay down when you leave the room, so I don't see that working.
Same with the orb. Isn't the orb room-specific? In fact, since the specific walls it affects are chosen, I can't imagine a setup orb room.

Maybe I'm just stupid. I don't even know anymore.

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Chaco
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I meant "area" as in "strike a few orbs, then leave the room and do a trapdoor puzzle" - as in, after messing with the orbs you can't do part of the puzzle, change the orbs again, then do the other part.

Sorry if there was any confusion, I only used "room" in the casual sense, not the DROD sense.


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Someone Else
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I don't really like this idea. Just put in a NPC that has code like this:

Wait for player at...
Wait while player at...

and repeat that however many times.
Then, for the door put an NPC with code like this:

Wait for NPC at...
Wait for NPC at...

etc.
For graphics, well, there are custom graphics for NPCs in TCB.
It just isn't good enough to be worth programming.

zex20913
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I'm going to go off on a minirant here.

Script suggestions, to me, are rarely useful. While they often work, and work well given the circumstances, just because something can be scripted doesn't mean that it shouldn't be implemented for ease of use. (I'm not endorsing multi-trapdoors, [That just gave me an idea...to be posted soon] just speaking in general). Take sister gates, for example. We understand how they work. Stuwy was able to script them for Channel One Suite. However, they are still being implemented, even though they are scriptable.

Also, oftentimes scripted solutions to things that could be implemented (like this) are invisible solutions. How on earth is the player to know how many times traversing is possible? Add speech? Okay...how do you make it drop trapdoors? Well, some more scripting and... Issue yet? What about when mimics cross the space? You can't even detect them unless they're characters.

The issues continue to add up, making a viable scripting solution for one aspect of the idea totally fail at others.

Not liking a suggestion because it can be scripted is even worse. I may be called old-school for this, but I often find that the scripts included in the game (those of monsters, only) often creates greater puzzles than the scripting system has. The logic of the creatures is visible, and scripting is often unpredictable or unexplained.

I take again Channel One Suite. While there were some fantastically designed puzzles, there were also some puzzles that were confusing because there was no introduction to them. How was the player to know that a guard means 1 space from a bomb will cause an explosion, while a mimic means 2? This took a lot of frustrating trial and error, whereas, say, wubba movement only took a few minutes, if that.

Puzzles simply involving non-scripting elements are vast in number. We know there are at least trillions of possible rooms. Scripting makes an infinite amount, but most of them feel gimmicky to me.

Give me an architect who can craft something complex from something simple. Give me an architect, and not a coder, for my holds.

/minirant.

Edit: I want to add that not all coding puzzles are bad. Designed well, scripted puzzles are great. Often, though, they are not well thought out, and become a frustrating exercise in seeming randomness. (Sword direction on a particular square, for instance, in COS.) I don't like doing puzzles blindfolded.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 12-04-2006 05:32 AM]

Mattcrampy
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One of the principles of the DROD game is that as much as possible all information needed to solve the puzzle should be presented to the player at the start of each room. The ability to script a solution doesn't affect the viability of a feature request

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NiroZ
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zex20913 wrote:
I'm going to go off on a minirant here.

Script suggestions, to me, are rarely useful. While they often work, and work well given the circumstances, just because something can be scripted doesn't mean that it shouldn't be implemented for ease of use.

Indeed. I personally hate having to use a 'scripting solution' simply because not only can it been unpredictable, but its can break the theme of some holds.

Briareos
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Kwakstur wrote:
As for it's visualization, I'll state the obvious: Put numbers on it, or give them colors based on numbers.

How about putting bolts on the trapdoor (you know, dominoes style) that drop one by one instead of the trapdoor when you step off of it until it becomes a normal trapdoor when there are no bolts left?

Okay, maybe it's a normal trapdoor with a few holes in it where the bolts were, but we could just make the holes close automagically... and put an upper limit on the number of possible bolts, of course...

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[Last edited by Briareos at 12-04-2006 08:51 AM]

Maurog
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I don't like the idea, simply because it would require numbers on the trapdoors and that's just aesthetically unappealing.

Now, if you could somehow use graphics to show how many are left, or just introduce the double trapdoor and that's it, then I'm all for this idea.

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Briareos
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Maurog wrote:
Now, if you could somehow use graphics to show how many are left, or just introduce the double trapdoor and that's it, then I'm all for this idea.

*cough*
*points to his post above*

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Maurog
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*points to the timestamps*

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NiroZ
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Well I personally don't like this idea because not only does it break with the canon, although I suppose that it could be patched up pretty easily. Then there is the havoc that it would wreak on those who solve via paper and pen, and it would be a lot harder to figure out at first glance, as I can imagine whole rooms of seemingly randomly placed trapdoors and double trapdoors, which could well be worse than that horrible room in KDD (lvl 14 I think). Its just way too complex for those of us who never did jump for joy upon seeing a trapdoor room.

Chaco
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That'd be level 15.

Well, there is one conclusion you can draw - a double-trapdoor is undroppable unless it is connected to at least three other trapdoors - two for stepping onto it and one to step off. Therefore, an arrangement like so:

TTDTT

is undroppable, obviously.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 12-04-2006 11:56 AM]

zex20913
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Unless there's a non-trapdoor square next to it.

But that does make me think the upper limit should be no more than 7...and that seems to be pushing it.

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Ezlo
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I like the bolt idea for visualization, it would look natural, plus it gives a nice limit. One bolt for each corner gives you a maximum of five times. I think that would be more than enough.

The thing is about trapdoor puzzles, is that if there are easy, they are deemed "unnecessary" and if they are hard, people get angry and start modding the hold down. There doesn't seem to be any medium area any more because almost everything has been done. And for me, a person who loves any type of trapdoor puzzle, I can solve most of them in my head. If we add a new way to interact with trapdoors, or a new type of trapdoor, it would give trapdoor puzzles a second chance.

AtkinsSJ
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I quite like trapdoor puzzles too. But I think this idea, however well thought-out it is, (VERY) will just make them needlessly complicated. But then, I'm probably hugely biased against them.

Ezlo
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I found the game I got the idea from if anyone is interested.

Platform Maze

Doom
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Ezlo wrote:
I found the game I got the idea from if anyone is interested.

Platform Maze

Hmh, that's *not* how you should make a fun puzzle game.

Time limit. Falling over the edge. Inverted controls. I'm not sure I want to know what's in the later levels...

Ezlo
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Yeah, the game isn't all that fun once you get far, but the idea is good.

AtkinsSJ
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I'd actually been thinking about Hex-a-hop. Aargh, that drove me insane!

Mattcrampy
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It might be possible to hook orbs up to things that are not doors, so you could have, for instance, trapdoors that reset when you hit an orb.

I gotta say, that sounds like it's got more utility.

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AtkinsSJ
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Mattcrampy wrote:
It might be possible to hook orbs up to things that are not doors, so you could have, for instance, trapdoors that reset when you hit an orb.

I gotta say, that sounds like it's got more utility.

Especially with the new red sister gates.

Tooth and Nail
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I have to say, that being a big fan of Q-bert back in the 80s, I really like this idea, and I have two things to add.
1: for quick reference you could use a traffic light color code. Step one trap doors are already red, you could make 2s yellow and 3s green.
and 2: in reference to the idea about resetting trap doors. What about a potion that lets you set them to begin with. Once you drink it, it lets you walk over a pit (once) leaving trap doors behind you as you go. Once you make contact with solid ground however, the ability is lost.
Just an idea.

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