Tscott
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File: Stuck.hold (4.4 KB)
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License: Public Domain

I'm working on a new hold called "Stuck!" Right now, I've got the first level done and an idea for the 2nd (and final?) level based on a similar idea as is found in most rooms in level 1.

The second level is proving to be a little tougher to build than I thought it'd be, so I'd like to get some ideas about what people think about these sorts of rooms before I spend too much time racking my brain trying to perfect another level of them.

So, here's level one. Please, if you're so inclined, test it out and let me know what you think. Is it an interesting challenge or too restricting?

Thanks.

EDIT: New version of hold. Level two added.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Tscott at 08-18-2006 09:21 PM]

Kevin_P86
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They're far too hard for me (I've only managed to beat the entrance, so far), but if I could manage them, I know they would be quite fun!

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+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

Doom
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Okay, I'm through it. *Stamp* of approval granted. I didn't find these too difficult or annoying. I'm still going to say that cutting through tar in rooms with black doors was rather tedious... Like 1N2E with no conveniently placed checkpoint around the tar chamber. Unless my technique was just that bad, and you could've rushed to the queens in the beginning while still leaving the tar cuttable.

Oh, and I can say that I only realised the point of those arrows-on-the-walls after clearing the hold. It's always obvious where you have to point that sword, so those aren't probably that important anyway.

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[Last edited by Doom at 08-11-2006 12:46 AM]

Tscott
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Doom wrote:
Okay, I'm through it. *Stamp* of approval granted. I didn't find these too difficult or annoying.

Glad to hear that. Hopefully you'll say the same after level two.

I finally got a version of my idea that'll work. It's an interesting idea (IMO) but I'm worried that the idea may wear thin after 8 rooms...

Let me know what you think. New version of the hold is in the first post.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Doom
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I see what you mean... After the first look, that looked like something that must be repetitive.

I did several rooms a moment ago. They were easier than the rooms in the first level IMO, because you'll always have quick access to some of the spawners, and the rest don't create really that many monsters.

There are basically 2 different sets of rooms: Diagonal rooms and orthogonal rooms. The rooms within one set have very few differences and are cleared in just about the same way. That does make them a bit repeating. 1N1E seems to be a much trickier exception.

The idea isn't bad, but it might be more fun if there were some parts that have to be cleared in a different way if your sword is pointing to direction X. RoboBob's Compass Point is one good example. I don't know if this can work with so many directions, though.

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[Last edited by Doom at 08-11-2006 09:45 AM]

Tscott
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Doom wrote:
I don't know if this can work with so many directions, though.

Yeah, it's pretty tough to even get a somewhat complex room like the one I used that can be solved in all ways like this. The first version of this room I was only able to solve 4 of the 8, then I cut the queens down from six to four and was able to solve 6 of 8, then I removed another queen making only 3 and was able to get 7 rooms- 1N1E being the impossible one. I finally added the walls with the seeps and was finally able to solve all eight rooms. With each change I worried I was making the rooms the could've been solved with 4 or 6 queens too easy in order to make the rest solvable.

I may have to rethink the elements and/or layout in the room to see if I can add more variety somehow, without making any room too easy or too hard.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Rabscuttle
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Nice.
In the first level I found 1N2E too similar to 1N1E. The mud is easy to get through so it's just like 1N1E but starting with the tar lower down.
The entrance doesn't really match the theme. (Although it does match the hold name)
In 2E I rushed to the mother and the rest of the room was a relatively easy clean up - not sure if that is intentional


Level 2 was ok - I found it a little more varied than it first appeared. 1N1E is a nice challenge to break up any feelings of repetitiveness.

Chaco
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Hmm, looks interesting, though I think from the comments it might be challenging.

Guess I'll get started...

EDIT:

Alright, here's what I think:

These are really nice puzzles. However, they're also really quite difficult puzzles. Most of them, I can see what I have to do but have a real hard time doing it. It's nifty, and I can tell that these are solvable, but they're just really challenging.

Oddly enough, I was unable to solve the Entrance, but I was able to solve Stuck 2N2E (roachqueens and 2x2 mud blobs) without too much trouble. It's lucky for me I've practiced no-sword-turn fighting.

I'd probably rate this 7 brains with about an 8.5 or 9 goodness rating.

P Q R S huh?

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-11-2006 12:36 PM]

larrymurk
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In general, I like.

L1:2E- You don't need to put the mimic where you intend. Just kill the mud, step to safety, then have the mimic hit any bomb.

L2- Mostly easy. 1S1E took some effort. 1N1E not solved yet.

Even though some rooms might've been somewhat tedious and some a bit repetative, I was perfectly happy playing them. Also, I'm sure many players will enjoy the easier ones.

Tscott
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larrymurk wrote:
L1:2E- You don't need to put the mimic where you intend. Just kill the mud, step to safety, then have the mimic hit any bomb.

Thanks. I'll change the wraithwing to a seep on a wall and that should enforce the intended solution.

For 1N1E of level two, I accidentally left that marked as "not required" from when I was testing the level and that room was still unsolvable. For people who have tried this room, do you think is it tough enough that it should still be marked that way, or should I change it back so it's required?

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

larrymurk
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I thought that was a brilliant idea on your part having L2:1N1E not required. I don't think I can solve it so I vote for keeping it not required.

Also, on L1:2E it might look cooler if you use nice blue tar babies instead of roaches.

Tscott
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larrymurk wrote:
I thought that was a brilliant idea on your part having L2:1N1E not required. I don't think I can solve it so I vote for keeping it not required.

Also, on L1:2E it might look cooler if you use nice blue tar babies instead of roaches.

Thanks. I think I'll mark 1N1E as a secret room and leave it as a challenge for mastery. In solving that room, I used a few well placed golem rock piles to control the flow of baddies. Also after the queens have been killed, the 3 arrow traps become an essental tool to solve the room.

I also like the idea of the tar babies in L1:2E.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Tscott
Level: Smiter

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Registered: 02-10-2003
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Rabscuttle wrote:
In the first level I found 1N2E too similar to 1N1E. The mud is easy to get through so it's just like 1N1E but starting with the tar lower down.

In 2E I rushed to the mother and the rest of the room was a relatively easy clean up - not sure if that is intentional

If I remove the black door in 1N2E would that make it better? You still get the challenge of needing to reach both mothers, but without all the ugly cleanup at the end.

2E - I see now that it's possible to reach the mother before the 3rd spawn cycle. My intent was to have the player fight off most of the mud while it was still growing. Adding a second mother a few squares north of the original should solve this problem.

EDIT: Up top I've added a new version of the hold with the changes made from these last few posts.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Tscott at 08-15-2006 03:31 PM]

Tscott
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File: all directions.hold (2.1 KB)
Downloaded 57 times.
License: Public Domain

I've been toying with the idea of on level 2 of instead of an empty entrance room, making the entrance match all the other rooms only with no restrictions on sword movement.

What do people think about this? Should I go for nine matching rooms, or would you say that... er, eight is enough?

Attached is that level on its own with the entrance changed the way I described.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Chaco
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I must have had an epiphany or something, because in the last half hour I managed to solve the entrance, then with some work plowed through the rest of the hold. The only room I haven't solved now is the dreaded level 2 1N1E.

Personally, I don't think it'd be too much of an issue to solve the room again with no restrictions - I don't think it's that hard on its own. I'll play it though.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

larrymurk
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I liked the origimal L1:2E. Cutting the tar was a bit tedious I'll admit. Yeah the removal of the black doors gets rid of the tedium, but it also allows for very different gameplay early on. I think with black doors was much harder, but either way is fine.

As for L2:Entr. Unfortunately, the majority of the rooms were simple so this just makes another simple one.

Chaco
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Do you mean 1N1E?

Yeah, I found that one sort of hard, but I think making sure you can get all the tar is another part of the puzzle.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

larrymurk
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larrymurk wrote:
I liked the origimal L1:2E. Cutting the tar was a bit tedious I'll admit. Yeah the removal of the black doors gets rid of the tedium, but it also allows for very different gameplay early on. I think with black doors was much harder, but either way is fine.

As for L2:Entr. Unfortunately, the majority of the rooms were simple so this just makes another simple one.

Oops, I meant L1:1N2E.
How about leaving this room as is and adding the version with black doors as a secret room?

Chaco
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Ah, yeah, the one with both the tar and the mud and the facing north. That was difficult, but I do indeed think getting all the tar is part of the challenge. I agree with Larry's idea of making this a secret room, and not having the black door in the original room.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Tscott
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In the current version of 1N2E (without the black door) has anyone killed the tar mother first?

What if I made that a secret room?

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

larrymurk
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Tscott wrote:
In the current version of 1N2E (without the black door) has anyone killed the tar mother first?

What if I made that a secret room?

No probs, I can kill the tar mothers just before the 2nd spawn. Then I kill the mud mothers on turn 182.

Tscott
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I'm thinking I'm going to keep 1N2E the way it is. With the black door the room becomes 1) race to kill the mud mother 2) the exact same as 1N1E- only more so 3) a bunch of cleanup. Without it, the player has a choice as to which approach to take and doesn't have the tedious cleanup at the end. Is it easier? Maybe, but I'd rather have a little variety and choice, rather than just making the hardest room.

Anyway, I added a new secret room to the first level. And it has a black door (plus a twist), so I hope that will satisfy those who wanted the black door kept in 1N2E.

Let me know what you think of the new secret room. I'm hoping to add this to the holds board soon. The latest version of the hold can be found in the top post.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Tscott at 08-18-2006 09:29 PM]

Tscott
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Any comments on the new secret room?



____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Chaco
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I played it a couple days ago. I dunno, it was sort of nice, but the fact that you can cut the muck twice as fast made it a lot easier in my opinion.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

larrymurk
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Firstly, sorry, I didn't notice your post asking to check the secret room.

I can say that this type of room is not easy to me. I played it for a little while and didn't solve it. I can also say that in general I don't like controlling Beethro and mimic(s) in most cases including this one. So, for me, this gets the not fun rating. But remember that's just me and this room is unrequired so I wouldn't mind just skipping it.

Tscott
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larrymurk wrote:
Firstly, sorry, I didn't notice your post asking to check the secret room.

I can say that this type of room is not easy to me. I played it for a little while and didn't solve it. I can also say that in general I don't like controlling Beethro and mimic(s) in most cases including this one. So, for me, this gets the not fun rating. But remember that's just me and this room is unrequired so I wouldn't mind just skipping it.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"