Znirk
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As far as I understand the rules ...

NiroZ wrote:

Also if this happens

-------
>>x>>>|
-------

were x is where the snake jumped over one empty square, and the snake hits the | and has nowhere to jump but backwards - as shown by the - and|'s ), would it be possible?

A snake can _not_ jump over an empty square, only over obstacles (boxes or snakes). But if that configuration comes about in some other way, then yes, a snake can jump backwards over itself into an empty square.

similarly, would snakes be able to jump over their own jumps, or the jumps of other snakes.

According to Erik's screenshot of the game test, yes. [Edit] Oh, and even in the solution image of the first very small room (over in the submission thread) you can see the snake jumped over the same box twice.

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[Last edited by Znirk at 08-07-2006 06:28 PM : another example]

Hikari
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coppro wrote:
A fit-to-screen copy of the image

By sheer coincidence, when images are viewed alone in most browsers, they are automatically fit to the screen.

Safari doesn't do that. Sad but true.

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coppro
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eytanz wrote:
Erm, that's only fit-to-screen if your screen resolution is 4400x4400...

Apparently, you aren't using most browsers.

Watcher
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ErikH2000 wrote:
1. Edit the post to make it as clear and concise as possible for new people. (We don't want all the rules spread across multiple posts, or cluttering up the initial post with "legacy" information.)
2. Post an extra message explaining what has changed and what is relevant for the old people already involved in the contest.

I did #1 and #2, but just not together. And I made the mistake of not warning people that #2 was coming the next day. This post is basically #2, about 16 hours after #1.

-Erik

That sounds good. I guess I happened to visit the forum at a bad time.

With respect to the example, I mainly mentioned it because the picture and solution didn't match for a short while. It's fine now, though, so it doesn't matter.

Now, questions:
Will the Pair Chamber be a subarea of the arena that's been partly sealed off, or will it be a separate, smaller arena before the main arena shows up?
About the "bonus areas": Will the bonus be enforced, as in "once a snake enters this area, no other snakes may enter", or is the area just carefully designed to make it difficult for more than one snake to enter?

And a small feature request: Would it be possible to add an option to have a move from your move queue evaluated every turn, rather than only when your snake bumps into something? I can think of quite a few situations where this would be useful.

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Hikari
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coppro wrote:

eytanz wrote:
Erm, that's only fit-to-screen if your screen resolution is 4400x4400...

Apparently, you aren't using most browsers.

The mere fact that *most* != *all* browsers is reason enough to put some other method of dealing with this in there. I'm suggesting that there be a link to something like this that's being rendered at the same time as the big image is..

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Tim
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coppro wrote:

eytanz wrote:
Erm, that's only fit-to-screen if your screen resolution is 4400x4400...

Apparently, you aren't using most browsers.

There's another thing, if the browser has to resize it to fit the screen, it also means that it needs to download the 4400x4400 picture onto the computer first.

I know many of you might not care about the bandwidth of the forum, but I can only hope I can even log onto this site during the contest...

-- Tim

michthro
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Tim actually has a point. From past experience, I'm lucky if I can log on when there's reason to expect a lot of traffic, such as when a new SmS hold is released. Will the server be able to handle the continuous requests for the snake pit image?

Citrus
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For some reason I am allowed to give the snake second from the top left orders. Is this supposed to happen?

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golfrman
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i think it's just supposed to show you what it will look like when you can give orders, cuz it shows that i have a dofferent snake every time i go there

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eytanz
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coppro wrote:

eytanz wrote:
Erm, that's only fit-to-screen if your screen resolution is 4400x4400...

Apparently, you aren't using most browsers.

Neither firefox nor IE resized that image for me.

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Niccus
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File: tinyoverview.PNG (68.9 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

56K-Friendlier version.

Not necessarily 56K-friendly or computer-friendly, but it's friendlier!

Unlike Coppro's version, doesn't update. Sorry.

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[Last edited by Niccus at 08-07-2006 10:56 PM]

NiroZ
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michthro wrote:
Tim actually has a point. From past experience, I'm lucky if I can log on when there's reason to expect a lot of traffic, such as when a new SmS hold is released. Will the server be able to handle the continuous requests for the snake pit image?

Perhaps the image should be split into blocks of 10 by 10 , which only update when they are changed. Should go someway to reduce bandwidth consuption.

Edit:
Just found a interesting feature. You can select different snakes! Just select the different snakes from the scroll down list, and a box appears on their heads.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 08-08-2006 01:03 AM]

Chaco
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I don't think the snakes actually accept commands, so I think it's useless.

Erik's just running this with all-bumps.

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Schik
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Okay, S!ttD now defaults to showing you a smaller image for the game screen. If the final game screen is smaller than this test one, I'll increase the size of the tiles for the smaller images so things are more visible.

You can change the size of the image by clicking the link below it. The size you last chose will be remembered.

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McFrugal
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Hmm, three snakes dead. So far the only reason snakes have died is because another player's live head was in the way. Otherwise, they would've had a legal jump. I bet this is going to be the most common cause of death.

Chaco
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This could enforce the metagaming aspect - it's going to be very hard for a snake to get trapped unless either a bunch of columns or rows are filled, or three (or four) snakes decide to be in the right place at the right time to kill a certain snake.

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krammer
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I'm going on holiday tomorrow with no internet access, so I won't be able to take part in this, although I've submitted an answer to the entry puzzle. Shame, it looks like good fun as well...

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ErikH2000
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Here's the start of a batch of late replies. First up, Techant.

techant wrote:
Wow!!! what a lot of creativeness you have Erik. This is a great contest and I am looking forward to it.

Thanks!

I only had one idea which I am almost sure you thought of and discarded for a very good reason, not that I know the reason or I wouldn't suggest it...but...

I ran out of time to make changes like this to the software. Not only would I need to change the software, but also the precisely designed Pair Chamber that I worked on early. The Pair Chamber is based on fixed movement sequence so that one player in the chamber will always go first. I actually mapped out every possible path and debugged several situations where one player could force a win over the other.

So there's too much going on this week (and last for that matter) to introduce gameplay changes. There are also a lot of unintended consequences of how the game plays that can arise from changing the sequence.

Maybe in a future game we can experiment with a rotating sequence like you describe.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 08-11-2006 07:49 PM]

ErikH2000
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jamesdenem wrote:
I'm guessing we will be told what snake # we are, or is that part of the contest?

When the contest starts (Local Time:08-13-2006 at 01:00 AM <- shown in your profile-set timezone) go to the Snake Page. If you have provided an entry solution before the contest start, your name will be in the dropdown list of "Alive Players". Also, as long as you are logged in, your snake will be selected by default in the list and highlighted on the map. You may need to scroll the map to see it. Use the coordinates next to your snakes name to find yourself quicker.

This isn't directly aimed at you, James, but I think I'll go on a tangent here to explain a few things related to entering the contest.

To date, everyone who has entered a solution and not asked to be excluded will be in the contest. It is possible that someone would make a really sloppy or uninformed attempt at providing a solution and he wouldn't be accepted, but that hasn't happened yet. Like if someone posted...

"SNAKES?!??! I LIKE SNAKES MY SNAKE IS VERY SMART AND KNOWS THE BESTY WAY TO GOS GOS GOS AND HE CAN DO IT THE SOLUTION"

...then that wouldn't be enough for me. A more borderline made-up example of a bad solution that probably wouldn't be accepted:

"Basically, the snake always jumps when there is open area to his left. Otherwise he bumps."

I'm looking for a token effort at understanding the rules of movement and following instructions. As I said, everyone so far who has submitted a solution has provided that.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 08-11-2006 07:53 PM]

ErikH2000
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NiroZ wrote:
One thing im curious about, what happens to dead snakes? do they vanish or stay to clog up the others.

They stay on the board.

The way i see it, the first option would be more feasible but less fun, as it would end up being who has the most space(most likely), wereas the second option would take alot longer but potentially more interesting.

Yeah, the "a lot longer" part is the concern. As it is, this contest is expected to go into September. The thing that forces an endgame is a diminishing amount of space. Otherwise, something else would be needed to bring the contest to a close. If there is a lot of empty space, the game is very, very hard to end.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Znirk wrote:
As far as I understand the rules ...

NiroZ wrote:
were x is where the snake jumped over one empty square, and the snake hits the | and has nowhere to jump but backwards - as shown by the - and|'s ), would it be possible?

A snake can _not_ jump over an empty square, only over obstacles (boxes or snakes). But if that configuration comes about in some other way, then yes, a snake can jump backwards over itself into an empty square.

Znirk's understanding is correct.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Watcher wrote:
Will the Pair Chamber be a subarea of the arena that's been partly sealed off, or will it be a separate, smaller arena before the main arena shows up?

It's a subarea. There is one big snakepit that contains everything. There will be enough copies of the Pair Chamber to accomodate all of the entered players.

About the "bonus areas": Will the bonus be enforced, as in "once a snake enters this area, no other snakes may enter", or is the area just carefully designed to make it difficult for more than one snake to enter?

The latter. It's actually rather easy to make area that only one snake may enter. Just have the area entirely surrounded by walls with 1-square wide entry and exit points. 1-way directional widgets are also easy to make using the discussed rules. A more general answer that covers other questions like this: no gameplay rules other than what has been discussed will be in place.

And a small feature request: Would it be possible to add an option to have a move from your move queue evaluated every turn, rather than only when your snake bumps into something?

Sorry, I don't have time.

-Erik

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coppro
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ErikH2000 wrote:

Znirk wrote:
As far as I understand the rules ...

NiroZ wrote:
were x is where the snake jumped over one empty square, and the snake hits the | and has nowhere to jump but backwards - as shown by the - and|'s ), would it be possible?

A snake can _not_ jump over an empty square, only over obstacles (boxes or snakes). But if that configuration comes about in some other way, then yes, a snake can jump backwards over itself into an empty square.

Znirk's understanding is correct.

-Erik

Can a snake jump over a dead snake head (really really matters)?

ErikH2000
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golfrman wrote:
i think it's just supposed to show you what it will look like when you can give orders, cuz it shows that i have a dofferent snake every time i go there

You can only give orders to your own snake. And if you aren't entered in the current game, those orders won't be used or affect anything. The dropdown lists allow you to select any snake, but this is only to provide information to you and doesn't affect the game in any way.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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krammer wrote:
I'm going on holiday tomorrow with no internet access, so I won't be able to take part in this, although I've submitted an answer to the entry puzzle. Shame, it looks like good fun as well...

Krammer, if you think you'll be back from holiday in a week or so, I think it is still possible for you to play. Send me an e-mail if you are interested.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Just 5 minutes ago I had posted the contest deadline as:

Local Time:08-12-2006 at 01:00 AM

...but it is actually a day later at:

Local Time:08-13-2006 at 01:00 AM

I edited the incorrect post to the right time. Sorry if I scared anybody.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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coppro wrote:
Can a snake jump over a dead snake head (really really matters)?

Yes. I think I said that in the rules. The snake heads are colored differently to make it more obvious. Walls and living snake heads (jumping obstacles) are dark brown/black. Boxes, snake bodies, and dead snake heads (not jumping obstacles) are red.

-Erik

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eytanz
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ErikH2000 wrote:

coppro wrote:
Can a snake jump over a dead snake head (really really matters)?

Yes. I think I said that in the rules. The snake heads are colored differently to make it more obvious. Walls and living snake heads (jumping obstacles) are dark brown/black. Boxes, snake bodies, and dead snake heads (not jumping obstacles) are red.

-Erik

You didn't mention it in the rules, and in fact the rules make no distinction between dead and living snake heads at all. I think you should edit the rules, as they currently give a completely wrong impression on this issue.

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
You didn't mention it in the rules, and in fact the rules make no distinction between dead and living snake heads at all. I think you should edit the rules, as they currently give a completely wrong impression on this issue.

Eytan, I actually did cover it. Here is the original text:

"The jumping movements 4-7 are possible if there is a square along the column or row of travel that is clear, and no walls or living snake heads are between your snake's head and that square."

The definition of "clear" is described just previous to that. I can see how the distinction of a "living" snake head might have been missed so I added italics around "living" in the above text, and added an extra sentence:

"Note that jumping over a dead snake head is permitted."

I find writing these game rules difficult because if I write too much, people will have a harder time remembering everything or lose their attention span partway through. My aim is to make brief instructions that describe everything needed to play the game.

-Erik


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jbluestein
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ErikH2000 wrote:

eytanz wrote:
You didn't mention it in the rules, and in fact the rules make no distinction between dead and living snake heads at all. I think you should edit the rules, as they currently give a completely wrong impression on this issue.

Eytan, I actually did cover it. Here is the original text:

"The jumping movements 4-7 are possible if there is a square along the column or row of travel that is clear, and no walls or living snake heads are between your snake's head and that square."

The definition of "clear" is described just previous to that. I can see how the distinction of a "living" snake head might have been missed so I added italics around "living" in the above text, and added an extra sentence:

"Note that jumping over a dead snake head is permitted."

I find writing these game rules difficult because if I write too much, people will have a harder time remembering everything or lose their attention span partway through. My aim is to make brief instructions that describe everything needed to play the game.

Hi Erik --

I think it might be worthwhile to note somewhere what objects do block jumping -- living snake heads, are there pits or anything else that block jumping?

Josh

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